Why was first century Israel judged?

[Fenris]

What is your preferred translation?

Artscroll.

Perhaps the NJPS Tanakh is similarly accepted among the Jewish community as is the NIV among Christians.

Trust me, it's not.

Is it true that Maimonides has written: "Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise [rabbis] have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah's coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the End Times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah". [Igeret Teiman, Chapter 3, p. 24.]?

If these are the actual words of Maimonides, (I do not own a copy of the Epistle to Yemen), then what part of Daniel is Maimonides referring to when he mentions "calculations of the days of Messiah's coming"?

Chapter 12.

[arc111]

Yes and I understand that this is central to Christian theology. It does not feature in Jewish theology though. "Every man dies for his own sin" and all that...

Why then were animals sacrificed?

[Fenris]

Why then were animals sacrificed?

Site running very slowly for some reason.

Let's make some notes about animal sacrifice. First, animal sacrifice was only for some inadvertent sins; intentional sins were too serious to achieve atonement via sacrifice. Secondly, animal sacrifice was only for sins already committed. Third, if one could not afford an animal, a flour sacrifice would suffice.

I think you see where I'm going here...

Now, animal sacrifice was a good way of atoning for accidental sin. First of all, it requires the trip to Jerusalem. Second, it means giving up one's property to God. Third, one has to lean on the animal and confess the sin, and realizing that thus living breathing animal had to die for this (accidental) sin. So in the future, the sinner should be more careful...

[Fenris]

The leader of the rebellion against Rome:

“Since we long ago resolved never to be servants to the Romans, nor to any other than to God Himself, Who alone is the true and just Lord of mankind, the time is now come that obliges us to make that resolution true in practice...We were the very first that revolted, and we are the last to fight against them; and I cannot but esteem it as a favor that God has granted us, that it is still in our power to die bravely, and in a state of freedom.”

Elazar ben Yair at Masada April 15, 73

His faith sounds weak, huh?

[arc111]

Artscroll.
Trust me, it's not.
Chapter 12.

What I mean is that Artscroll is maybe comparable to the King James Version which is accepted among fundamentalist Christians. A large number of these same fundamentalists reject the New International Version.

You sound like a follower of 'Artscroll only' Orthodox Judaism. (I mean nothing derogatory here)
In like manner, there are 'King James only' fundamentalist Christians.

I am a fundamentalist, but not King James Only. Some of my brothers ridicule me because I am open to modern translations.

Perhaps maimonides was only speaking of Daniel 12.

Is it true that Rashi explains as follows:

Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed on Jerusalem from the day of the first destruction in the days of Zechariah until it will be [destroyed] the second time. to terminate the transgression and to end sin so that Israel should receive their complete retribution in the exile of Titus and his subjugation, in order that their transgressions should terminate, their sins should end, and their iniquities should be expiated, in order to bring upon them eternal righteousness and to anoint upon them (sic) the Holy of Holies: the Ark, the altars, and the holy vessels, which they will bring to them through the king Messiah. The number of seven weeks is four hundred and ninety years. The Babylonian exile was seventy [years] and the Second Temple stood four hundred and twenty [years].

"In the Stone edition, the footnote to the words “the anointed one” in Daniel 9:26 summarizes Rashi’s view as follows: “I.e., Agrippa, the last Jewish king, at the end of the Second Temple Era. After his death, the prince of this verse, the Roman Titus, would command the destruction of the Temple, which will not be rebuilt until after the War of Gog and Magog, in MESSIANIC times.” So, Rashi taught that the prophecy pinpointed the death of Agrippa and the destruction of the Temple – but then simply drifted off to the distant future in terms of the final fulfillment of the prophecy."

"I find it interesting that Rachmiel Frydland, a well-known Messianic Jewish scholar, became a believer in Yeshua with the help of Rashi’s commentary on Daniel 9:24-27. Raised as an ultra-Orthodox Jew in Poland, Frydland narrowly escaped death in the Holocaust, enduring terrible suffering and deprivation in his flight from his homeland. 170 During an intensive time of seeking the truth about the Scriptures as a teenager, he read Rashi’s commentary and thought to himself – to paraphrase – “He has the time frame right, but he got the wrong anointed one!” Soon he realized, “It is not Agrippa who was cut off; it was Yeshua.”

You know Fenris, at one time we have both rejected Jesus.

[Fenris]

You sound like a follower of 'Artscroll only' Orthodox Judaism. (I mean nothing derogatory here)

Um no, I can read Hebrew. If you ask me which translation is closest to the Hebrew that I am reading, it is Artscroll.

Is it true that Rashi explains as follows:

Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed on Jerusalem from the day of the first destruction in the days of Zechariah until it will be [destroyed] the second time. to terminate the transgression and to end sin so that Israel should receive their complete retribution in the exile of Titus and his subjugation, in order that their transgressions should terminate, their sins should end, and their iniquities should be expiated, in order to bring upon them eternal righteousness and to anoint upon them (sic) the Holy of Holies: the Ark, the altars, and the holy vessels, which they will bring to them through the king Messiah. The number of seven weeks is four hundred and ninety years. The Babylonian exile was seventy [years] and the Second Temple stood four hundred and twenty [years].

"In the Stone edition, the footnote to the words “the anointed one” in Daniel 9:26 summarizes Rashi’s view as follows: “I.e., Agrippa, the last Jewish king, at the end of the Second Temple Era. After his death, the prince of this verse, the Roman Titus, would command the destruction of the Temple, which will not be rebuilt until after the War of Gog and Magog, in MESSIANIC times.” So, Rashi taught that the prophecy pinpointed the death of Agrippa and the destruction of the Temple – but then simply drifted off to the distant future in terms of the final fulfillment of the prophecy."

Rashi does identify the king as Agrippa. But he isn't identifying anything in the chapter as being about messianic times.

Rachmiel Frydland

Was never an "ultra-Orthodox Jew" and doesn't make any new points either.

[Stormcrow]

No prophets before the Holocaust either.Malachi was the last.

That assumes the Holocaust was God's judgement upon your people. It wasn't.

[Fenris]

That assumes the Holocaust was God's judgement upon your people. It wasn't.

What makes you so sure? Are you claiming to be a prophet?

[arc111]

Well, it seems that God DID judge first century Israel. And it DOES seem that Israel has been displaced (not REplaced) during this age, aka the 'times of the Gentiles'.

The question then, is WHY was first century Israel judged? What did they do that was so terrible that such a long term catastrophe has happened to them?

Whatever Israel did, it was obviously 'worse' than anything else they have historically did, because the judgement is worse.

[Stormcrow]

What makes you so sure? Are you claiming to be a prophet?

You don't have to be a prophet to understand that God's final judgement against Israel occurred in 70 AD, when the kingdom was taken away from them.

There is no justification - either religious or secular - for what has happened to the Jews since then. None.

[Fenris]

Well, it seems that God DID judge first century Israel. And it DOES seem that Israel has been displaced (not REplaced) during this age, aka the 'times of the Gentiles'.

The question then, is WHY was first century Israel judged? What did they do that was so terrible that such a long term catastrophe has happened to them?

All good questions.

Whatever Israel did, it was obviously 'worse' than anything else they have historically did, because the judgement is worse.

Not necessarily. Longer, yes. But for someone who lived between the first and second temples their whole life was in exile. During the past 20 centuries people lived their whole lives in exile too. So it's not all that different.

[Fenris]

You don't have to be a prophet to understand that God's final judgement against Israel occurred in 70 AD, when the kingdom was taken away from them.

I don't understand how that is the "final" judgement, especially considering that the Jewish people still exist. Now, if the Romans had annihilated the Jewish people, your statement would be correct.

But then, God promised that He wouldn't do that in Leviticus 26.

There is no justification - either religious or secular - for what has happened to the Jews since then.

Not sure what this means.

[arc111]

All good questions.
Not necessarily. Longer, yes. But for someone who lived between the first and second temples their whole life was in exile. During the past 20 centuries people lived their whole lives in exile too. So it's not all that different.

Is it not true that G-d's judgment extends to both 'severity' and 'longevity'? Is He not exacting in His judgements and Holy in all of His ways?

Did G-d not equate 'length' of judgement in proportion to the sins of Israel?

2 Chronicles 36:18-21 "All the vessels of the house of G-d, great and small, and the treasures of the house of [Yehovah], and the treasures of the king, and of his princes, all these he brought to Babylon. 19 They burnt the house of G-d, and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all its palaces with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels of it. 20 He carried those who had escaped from the sword away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: 21 to fulfill the word of [Yehovah] by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths: for as long as it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years."

Each of the seventy years of captivity represented the violation of one Sabbatical year—one year in seven. Judgement was precisely proportional to the 'sins of the nation'.

Did first century Israel violate the Sabbath? I don't belive so.

But perhaps first century Israel another of the '10 Commandments'.

Deuteronomy Chapter 6

ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.

4 Hear, O Israel: the LORD our G-d, the LORD is one.

Deuteronomy Chapter 11 טז הִשָּׁמְרוּ לָכֶם, פֶּן יִפְתֶּה לְבַבְכֶם; וְסַרְתֶּם, וַעֲבַדְתֶּם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, וְהִשְׁתַּחֲוִיתֶם, לָהֶם. 16 Take heed to yourselves, lest your heart be deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them; יז וְחָרָה אַף-יְהוָה בָּכֶם, וְעָצַר אֶת- הַשָּׁמַיִם וְלֹא-יִהְיֶה מָטָר, וְהָאֲדָמָה, לֹא תִתֵּן אֶת-יְבוּלָהּ; וַאֲבַדְתֶּם מְהֵרָה, מֵעַל הָאָרֶץ הַטֹּבָה, אֲשֶׁר יְהוָה, נֹתֵן לָכֶם. 17 and the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and He shut up the heaven, so that there shall be no rain, and the ground shall not yield her fruit; and ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.

Could it be that the relevant 'curse' is the disregarding of the First and Greatest Commandment? "Hear O Israel, the Lord thy G-d is One". After all, Israel did perish quickly from off the good land which the Lord gave her.

If Yeshua was correct when He said "I and the Father are one", then it would follow that Israel has turned aside (away) from the 'ONE'. If Yeshua is the only G-d, then who has Israel been following for the last millennia?

אני ואבי אחד אנחנו׃ John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Fenris, can you at least concede that it is possible that Yeshua is the ONE Lord, and that by rejecting Him, Israel has turned away from the Lord although she continues to give lip-service to Him?

The ONLY thing that we gentiles can teach Israel is that Yeshua is Lord and King Messiah. He has brought us who were pagans into covenant with Hashem Elokeinu! If it were not for Him, G-d could not be known to us!

Israel, on the other hand, has much to teach us regarding the Torah. I believe that we, the gentile church, has abandoned our Jewish roots.

My heart breaks for Israel. You are my brothers, and we will one day all face the same Lord.

[Fenris]

[B]Is it not true that G-d's judgment extends to both 'severity' and 'longevity'? Is He not exacting in His judgements and Holy in all of His ways?

Did G-d not equate 'length' of judgement in proportion to the sins of Israel?

2 Chronicles 36:18-21 "All the vessels of the house of G-d, great and small, and the treasures of the house of [Yehovah], and the treasures of the king, and of his princes, all these he brought to Babylon. 19 They burnt the house of G-d, and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all its palaces with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels of it. 20 He carried those who had escaped from the sword away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: 21 to fulfill the word of [Yehovah] by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths: for as long as it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years."

Each of the seventy years of captivity represented the violation of one Sabbatical year—one year in seven. Judgement was precisely proportional to the 'sins of the nation'.

Well, the bible only specifies that for the 70 years between the two temples. We really don't have a rationale for the length of present exile, aside from it being God's plan.

But perhaps first century Israel another of the '10 Commandments'.

You know, I asked this question in the past. Is Judaism idolatry?

[Stormcrow]

I don't understand how that is the "final" judgement, especially considering that the Jewish people still exist. Now, if the Romans had annihilated the Jewish people, your statement would be correct.

But then, God promised that He wouldn't do that in Leviticus 26.

God has always promised that a remnant of your people would remain through His judgments upon them. He "marked" a remnant through the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem (Ezekiel 9:4-7) just as He marked a remnant of your people who would survive through the Roman destruction of Jerusalem (Revelation 7:3-8).

His purpose was to bring you back into fellowship with Him in the New Covenant He made in Christ.

There is no justification - either religious or secular - for what has happened to the Jews since then.

Not sure what this means.

Very simply put: while God had promised to punish your people for breaking the covenant for as often as they did it (Leviticus 26), that was all part of the Old Covenant God made with Moses. Every smallest letter and stroke of the Law was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple in 70 AD.

Therefore, what has happened to your people since then cannot be justified as a result of God's judgment upon you nor justified by those who would try to wipe you out for any other reason their evil minds could concoct, including the Medieval church - which tried to pin the label "Christ-killers" on you, and Hitler, who tried to blame all the ills of German society on you.

These were the works of evil men, not a righteous God, whose final judgment was executed on them in 70 AD - by the Romans - just as His earlier judgment against them had been executed by the Babylonians in 586 BC.

The sins of the fathers are no longer held against the sons and haven't been for a very long time.

Peace. Out.