Why was first century Israel judged?

[John146]

Yes, some king was 'cut off' and he 'was no more.'

And who was that?

[arc111]

Okay, then how about the following passage from Deuteronomy? While it could refer to the Babylonian exile as well, there are certain references to indicate that this prophecy speaks of Rome. There is already a reference earlier in this chapter that seems to line up with the Babylonian conquest. The fact that Rome did rule over Israel for a time and the yoke that the Roman taxation was on the people of Israel. Then there's the reference to cannibalism and behavioral changes brought about by attempts to survive by both men and women.

Deu 28:48-58
(48) and you shall serve your enemies whom Jehovah shall send on you, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in lack of all things. And He shall put an iron yoke on your neck until He has destroyed you.
(49) Jehovah shall raise a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as the eagle flies; a nation whose tongue you will not understand,
(50) a nation fierce of face, who will not regard the person of the aged, nor show favor to the young.
(51) And he shall eat the fruit of your livestock, and the fruit of your land, until you are destroyed. He shall not leave to you grain, new wine, and oil, offspring of your oxen, or young ones of your flock, until he has destroyed you.
(52) And he shall distress you in all your gates, until your high and fortified walls in which you are trusting come down, in all your land; yea, he shall distress you in all your gates, in all your land which Jehovah your God has given to you.
(53) And you shall eat the fruit of your body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom Jehovah your God has given to you, in the siege, and in the anguish with which your enemies shall distress you.
(54) The man who is tender and very delicate among you, his eye shall be evil against his brother, and against the wife of his bosom, and against the remnant of his sons which he leaves,
(55) so that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his sons that he shall eat, because he has nothing left to him in the siege, and in the anguish with which your enemies shall distress you in all your gates.
(56) The soft and delicate woman among you, who would not have ventured to set the sole of her foot on the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil against the husband of her bosom, and against her son, and against her daughter;
(57) and against her fetus which comes out from between her feet, even against her sons whom she shall bear. For she shall eat them in secret, for the lack of everything in the siege and in the anguish with which the enemy shall distress you within your gates.
(58) If you will not take heed to do all the Words of this Law written in this book, to fear this glorious and fearful Name, Jehovah your God,

I believe that this does refer to Rome. "Iron" and 'eagles', along with the destruction, seem to point to Rome.

Great post!

[arc111]

Yes, some king was 'cut off' and he 'was no more.'

Daniel 9:26 - "“And after those 62 weeks, the anointed one will disappear and vanish."

This is the "Hebrew Bible" translation. You know, those are strange words...to disappear and vanish. It almost supposes a reappearance.

[Stormcrow]

{15} The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; {16} but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy. 2 Chronicles 36:15-16 (NASB)

{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. {36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

{37} "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. {38} "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)

Please take a couple of minutes to read Leviticus 26 starting with verse 14. Then read the parable of the landowner in Matthew 21, starting with verse 33.

When viewed together, you'll see that they were judged in the 1st century AD for the same reason they were judged in the 6th century BC: they killed those God sent to them and refused to obey Him. Here's a verse from Leviticus 26 that puts this in perspective:

{23} 'And if by these things you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, {24} then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins. {25} ~'I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands. Leviticus 26:23-25 (NASB)

Finally, look what Luke writes:

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Luke 21:20 (NASB) {22} because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:22 (NASB)

They were judged for disobedience and acting with hostility toward Christ and the covenant He confirmed with them in coming to earth.

IMHO.

[Fenris]

I am just interested in how the Jewish people understand the reasons for their exile in the first century.

We no longer have prophets, so we cannot know God's will.

The rabbis understood that it was caused by strife between Jews, which is actually, literally, true. While the Romans besieged Jerusalem from without, the Jews inside the city were killing each other over politician and religious differences. What's sad is that while the siege was going on the Roman leadership was having tremendous upheaval- it was called the 'year of the four emperors'. If a unified Jewish leadership had approached the Romans with a peace offer it likely would have been accepted.

Tomorrow is the 9th of the Jewish month of Av and we mourn the destruction of the temples on that day with a 25 hour fast.

May the Almighty console us.

[Fenris]

And who was that?

Opinions differ. Alexander Yannai?

[Fenris]

Daniel 9:26 - "“And after those 62 weeks, the anointed one will disappear and vanish."

This is the "Hebrew Bible" translation. You know, those are strange words...to disappear and vanish. It almost supposes a reappearance.

The Hebrew actually says "will be cut off, and be no more".

[divaD]

The Hebrew actually says "will be cut off, and be no more".

While the sense can indeed mean that, it is not always the case tho.

1 Kings 9:7 Then will I cut off(karath) Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:


Same Hebrew word here..karath. Does this then mean that Israel would be no more once that he was cut off(karath) out of the land which the LORD has given them? Does this also imply that Israel could never return to this land once being cut off?

IMO, Daniel 9:26 should be understood in the same sense as 1 Kings 9:7 . IOW, not that someone never exists again, and not that the Messiah can't return after being cut off, but that someone can exist again after being cit off, and someone could return again after being cut off. .

[Fenris]

While the sense can indeed mean that, it is not always the case tho.

1 Kings 9:7 Then will I cut off(karath) Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:


Same Hebrew word here..karath. Does this then mean that Israel would be no more once that he was cut off(karath) out of the land which the LORD has given them? Does this also imply that Israel could never return to this land once being cut off?

Being "cut off" does not imply that there is a return. Some very speculative stuff going on here.

Anyway, when an individual is "cut off" it is usually for their sins. That's why the Jewish presumption is that this king is not a good person.

[episkopos]

Daniel 9: 24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to forgive iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint the most holy place.

This is the warning: The Jews have 490 years to straighten out. For, if not-

the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

Which actually happened.

Why has this exile been so long? God's plan is not yet complete.

The restoration of Israel is not a physical event. It is based on the coming kingdom of God with the return of Christ. God is waiting for the table to be full before declaring the true restoration of Israel. Don't look to the world but look to Christ.

[Fenris]

The restoration of Israel is not a physical event.

Don't see what that has to do with my post. And plenty of Christians seem to think that it is a physical event anyway.

[divaD]

Being "cut off" does not imply that there is a return.

I never meant it implies a return in all cases. But there could be exceptions, such as I tried to show with 1 Kings 9:7 . Wouldn't Israel in that passage have to be understood in a collective sense, such as a nation? Has Israel ever been cut off from the land that the LORD has given them, yet still returned at a later time?

Some very speculative stuff going on here.

Not really. You might have a point if one were trying to interpret Dan 9:26 apart from the NT. But most Christians also use the NT in determining the meaning of this prophecy. But since you don't see the NT as being holy writ, then it's obvious why it would seem to you like great speculation on our part.

[Fenris]

I never meant it implies a return in all cases. But there could be exceptions, such as I tried to show with 1 Kings 9:7 . Wouldn't Israel in that passage have to be understood in a collective sense, such as a nation? Has Israel ever been cut off from the land that the LORD has given them, yet still returned at a later time?

When an individual is "cut off" it's usually a punishment for sin. Anyway you're trying to use the exception to prove the rule.

Not really. You might have a point if one were trying to interpret Dan 9:26 apart from the NT. But most Christians also use the NT in determining the meaning of this prophecy. But since you don't see the NT as being holy writ, then it's obvious why it would seem to you like great speculation on our part.

I don't think that 9:26 is critical to Christian theology. I think you'd make a stronger case if you stopped trying to tie every single verse to Jesus. Shrug. But I'm the outsider here, what do I know.

[Stormcrow]

We no longer have prophets, so we cannot know God's will.

^{1} God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, ^{2} in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. Hebrews 1:1-2 (NASB)

You can know the will of God. You just have to look to the last "prophet" you did have.

Tomorrow is the 9th of the Jewish month of Av and we mourn the destruction of the temples on that day with a 25 hour fast.
May the Almighty console us.

Your loss - as horrible and as tragic as it was - could have been avoided, as you correctly assert in another post. The wrath of God was poured out upon that generation and the good news is that He is not angry with you anymore (and has not been since the passing of that generation). God welcomes all into His new Temple - both Jew and Gentile alike - because of His overwhelming love and mercy towards us all. I don't know if you've ever heard or read that before, but I thought it bore repeating.

^{7} but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; ^{8} the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 (NASB)

The mystery has been made known. God's will for all is clear.

Peace. Out.

[divaD]

I think you'd make a stronger case if you stopped trying to tie every single verse to Jesus.

Let's look at this from your perpective for a bit. You said in one post that this king was debatable, and that some take it mean Alexander Yannai for example.

So how exactly does that king tie in with the context leading up to verse 26?

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The following would have to occur within this 70 weeks.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

This would have to be referring to the same Messiah in verse 25, in which some conclude is Alexander Yannai . So here's what the text would then look like.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Alexander Yannai the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Alexander Yannai be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

What I want to know is how verse 25 and 26 ties in with verse 24, since the
most Holy in verse 24 is likely the Messiah in verse 25 and 26? How would someone like Alexander Yannai fulfill that, since he would have been cut off after 69 weeks, to be no more? I would think that the entire 70 weeks would have to be completed first, then to anoint the most Holy at the end of the 70 weeks. The only way that could be logical, someone would have to literally rise from the dead first. I don't recall anyone ever saying Alexander Yannai
ever rose from the dead.