A few questions for the once saved always saved crowd

[Helovesme]

Hey guys I am not looking for a fight, I would just like to understand the mind of the OSAS crowd and try to understand your comprehension of certain scriptures, so I have a few questions, but I am not looking for someone to just throw their pet scriptures at me
just because you don't have an answer, nor am I looking for answers to questions I did not ask..

The main reason I ask the questions are, because so many times if someone just hints that we should strive for holiness or living a life that is set apart , then someone comes in and get's all Barney Fife, screaming about, that is works based salvation, and nobody is even talking about salvation or going to heaven or not going to heaven.

One of my questions are, what do you consider works?

which brings me to my next question; Most OSAS folks always bring up that Salvation is Grace through faith, which it is; but , if you have no works then faith is dead, so can grace go through dead faith?

[Nobunaga]

I'm in the osas crowd and dont recognize most of this. I would say the works i do are God working in me to do His will, if i wasn't regenerated i would not be doing them at all, i remember the time when i lived like this. There are no works i can do to get saved and I agree faith without works is dead. This whole issue i think has been blown out of proportion in the end both sides agree;

1. we are saved by grace through Faith not of works.
2. Faith without works is dead.

if a person loses their salvation the osas would say he was never saved, the other side says they lost their salvation....Both come to the same conclusion by different means. In the end we agree, whats the point in all the arguing ?

If points 1 & 2 are being brought into question then its a cause for arguing but i dont get it when both sides agree on points 1 & 2 and agree the apostate is lost ? we have more in common then we differ on.

[Helovesme]

I thank you for your kind response, but I still would like to know what you consider to be works...
I continue to ask because in my understanding of "faith without works is dead" even comes into play when we first get saved, unless you are a universalist and your just saved automatically because of grace/unmerited favor... what I am getting at is; if repentance, which is turning away from sin is a requirement to getting saved, then why do so many OSAS folks, get all tore up if you suggest that after salvation you should still be turning away from sin, instead they say , oh there is nothing I have to do,I am under grace so it does not matter if I decide to walk in the flesh again.
The turning away from sin that was required in order to be saved was on our part,so it was a work for us, and we can at any time chose to turn back to sin, our will to chose was not taken away at conversion, so if turning away from sin was a requirement for salvation ,why is it no longer a requirement after salvation?

BTW I do understand that it is through the Spirit of God within that enables us to do God's will and our spirit is willing , but the flesh is still weak and especially when we have not been spending time with the Lord, so here we come back around to our part in putting the flesh under subjection, crucifying the flesh is very hard work..
I would like for you to look at one more thing... do you agree that we need the blood to be continually cleansing us from all sin ?
if so, did you know that there is a requirement on our part in order for this to happen?

[Nobunaga]

I thank you for your kind response, but I still would like to know what you consider to be works...

Thank yo for your kind respoce also

What is Good works ... i would say doing good works is akin to walking in the Spirit and bearing the Fruits of the Spirit. love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and how that manifests itself in daily life. But it seems you have something specific in mind "repentance"

what I am getting at is; if repentance, which is turning away from sin is a requirement to getting saved,

If i am saved by grace through Faith then a requirement of repentance would make it a work and not grace. I'm not saying repentance is not needed but dead men cannot repent, we were dead in our trespasses and sins. Colossians 2:13. Once we are alive to God then we can repent. I think the cart is being placed before the horse here

then why do so many OSAS folks, get all tore up if you suggest that after salvation you should still be turning away from sin, instead they say , oh there is nothing I have to do,I am under grace so it does not matter if I decide to walk in the flesh again.

Well those folk are wrong, plain and simple. You will always be repenting if you sin in life or you should be.

The turning away from sin that was required in order to be saved was on our part,so it was a work for us, and we can at any time chose to turn back to sin, our will to chose was not taken away at conversion, so if turning away from sin was a requirement for salvation ,why is it no longer a requirement after salvation?

Repentance is not a work we do to get saved but it's the response that a saved person has to sins when he is born again.
I dont think i'm explaining this very well, but we are saved by grace through faith... not by repentance, Our faith will produce repentance however but it's not the cause of salvation, God's grace is the cause of salvation.

[Helovesme]

Repentance is not a work we do to get saved but it's the response that a saved person has to sins when he is born again.
I dont think i'm explaining this very well, but we are saved by grace through faith... not by repentance, Our faith will produce repentance however but it's not the cause of salvation, God's grace is the cause of salvation.

I agree that the cause of salvation goes back to grace and the grace comes from God, but repentance is not only turning from sin but it is turning to God from sin and it is the action on our part that say's that we agree with God that we are sinners . if there is no repentance/turning to God then salvation is still offered but we cannot accept it without repentance because we must turn to God in order to accept grace and when we turn to God we are also turning from sins/repenting , in fact Jesus even said many times repent and believe the gosple Mark 1:15.
Luke 13:3 - Unless you repent you will all likewise perish.Isn't perishing the opposite of everlasting life ,and isn't everlasting life what we gain at salvation?
Acts 2:38 - In the first gospel sermon, Peter preached, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you for the remission of sins..." remission means forgivness, isn't being forgiven a requirement for claiming salvation ? and it is part of what salvation means..

With all this being said , don't misunderstand i realize that there will be continued repentance for things that the Holy Spirit brings to light,and Salvation did come by grace through faith, it is offered, but all the scriptures indicate that repentance is how we accept it, like I said before if it is not, then the universalist doctrine is what we are left with...

[Nobunaga]

I agree that the cause of salvation goes back to grace and the grace comes from God, but repentance is not only turning from sin but it is turning to God from sin and it is the action on our part that say's that we agree with God that we are sinners . if there is no repentance/turning to God then salvation is still offered but we cannot accept it without repentance because we must turn to God in order to accept grace and when we turn to God we are also turning from sins/repenting , in fact Jesus even said many times repent and believe the gosple Mark 1:15.
Luke 13:3 - Unless you repent you will all likewise perish.Isn't perishing the opposite of everlasting life ,and isn't everlasting life what we gain at salvation?
Acts 2:38 - In the first gospel sermon, Peter preached, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you for the remission of sins..." remission means forgivness, isn't being forgiven a requirement for claiming salvation ?

With all this being said , don't misunderstand i realize that there will be continued repentance for things that the Holy Spirit brings to light,and salvation came by grace through faith, it is offered, but all the scriptures indicate that repentance is how we accept it, like I said before if it is not, then the universalist doctrine is what we are left with...

I think we are on the same page, would you agree that Repentance is necessary for salvation but does not merit salvation ?

I'm all for Preaching repentance my website is called Repent-Believe.com

I dont see how this is a osas issue though ? It's mostly Reformed people in my experience who are osas and they are really big on repentance

[Helovesme]

I agree we are on the same page, but I have one more question for you, in John3:16 what does "whosoever believeth in me" mean to you? or what is your definition of believe in ? and do we have to continue in this in order to go to heaven, where are salvation is complete?

[BroRog]

I think we are on the same page, would you agree that Repentance is necessary for salvation but does not merit salvation ?

I'm all for Preaching repentance my website is called Repent-Believe.com

I dont see how this is a osas issue though ? It's mostly Reformed people in my experience who are osas and they are really big on repentance

It depends on how one defines OSAS. It has become customary lately, for some reason, to equate OSAS with the Reformed doctrine of Eternal Security. But these are not the same thing if I properly understand both OSAS and the doctrine of Eternal Security.

[TrustGzus]

I would point out that there are at least two types of OSAS believers: Lordship and non-Lordship.

I don't know any informed Christian of either group that would say it doesn't matter if I walk in the flesh in the narrowest sense. Lordship believers (who are generally Calvinists) would say what Nobunaga is saying, i.e. they weren't saved if that's what they do. Non-Lordship would say they are saved still, but that it does matter.

It seems to me that those that do not accept OSAS worry about a false idea, that a person who is born again, but holds to OSAS will purposely choose to not walk in holiness. This is so contrary to Scripture. Those who have placed their trust in Jesus, have the Holy Spirit indwell them. Once that happens, and they become partakers of the divine nature, they will have new desires. They will desire to walk with the Jesus. I personally believe that OSAS allows me to more easily walk in holiness because it takes away my worry that I might fall away or might not be doing enough. Now that I'm not worried about my performance, performance is easier.

[TrustGzus]

I agree we are on the same page, but I have one more question for you, in John3:16 what does "whosoever believeth in me" mean to you? or what is your definition of believe in ? and do we have to continue in this in order to go to heaven, where are salvation is complete?

Believe in means to place trust in.

A person is saved when they place their trust in the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

[Nobunaga]

I agree we are on the same page, but I have one more question for you, in John3:16 what does "whosoever believeth in me" mean to you? or what is your definition of believe in ? and do we have to continue in this in order to go to heaven?

To "believe in" to me means to "trust" and with Regards to Jesus I trust in Him as the only way of salvation, His blood atones for my sins and satisfies Gods wrath that was destined for me, He is the only way of salvation as i see it and i believe in Him and trust Him for that.

Whosoever believes means those who believe, which i see are the elect, As you cannot come to Jesus unless the Father draws you.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

[BroRog]

I agree we are on the same page, but I have one more question for you, in John3:16 what does "whosoever believeth in me" mean to you? or what is your definition of believe in ? and do we have to continue in this in order to go to heaven, where are salvation is complete?

To "believe in" someone is to live as if what the person says is true. So, for instance, suppose my friend tells me that a bomb will go off in my building today at 3:00 pm. If I believe my friend I will leave the building, or else I will not leave the building. If I say I believe my friend, but don't leave the building, then I don't actually believe my friend. What we SAY we believe and what we ACTUALLY believe is marked by what we do with what we believe.

The statement "whosoever believeth in me . . ." assumes that a person will act on what he believes and remain believing.

[Helovesme]

It seems to me that those that do not accept OSAS worry about a false idea, that a person who is born again, but holds to OSAS will purposely choose to not walk in holiness. This is so contrary to Scripture. Those who have placed their trust in Jesus, have the Holy Spirit indwell them. Once that happens, and they become partakers of the divine nature, they will have new desires. They will desire to walk with the Jesus. I personally believe that OSAS allows me to more easily walk in holiness because it takes away my worry that I might fall away or might not be doing enough. Now that I'm not worried about my performance, performance is easier.

I have had multiple conversations with OSAS folks and I have never heard anything but the examples I have given, but let's deal with; purposely choose to not walk in holiness, How many people have you came across who have been saved and are living with and sleeping with people they are not married too?
This is not slipping up or stumbling which we all do, this a lifestyle that one has to purposely choose to live it, this is walking in the flesh...

And yes when we are saved we become partakers of the divine nature, and we have new desires but we are not forced by the spirit to walk in that divine nature, we can still walk in the flesh because our flesh is still weak and when we do so, we are making a choice to do it, cause once again we are not forced by the flesh to walk in the flesh either, anything you are not forced to do requires a choice.... now keep in mind walking in the flesh is more than the occasional stumble or occasional sin, that we all do..
I have heard many folks say that if a Christian goes into sin for a period of time , then they are only out of fellowship with God and are still heaven bound.
would you agree that walking in the divine nature, being in fellowship with God and walking in the light are the same things?
And I would like to also ask you the question that I asked the other fellow, do you agree that it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from sin so that we can enter into heaven? and if so, did you know that there is a requirement for having the blood to continue to cleanse us from sin?

[Helovesme]

To "believe in" to me means to "trust"

yes this is part of it, I looked it up in the original Greek and this particular instance of the words believe in , means to ,trust in, rely on and adhere to;
now look at the definition of adhere to .
follow, keep, maintain, respect, observe, be true, fulfill, obey, heed, keep to, abide by, be loyal, mind, be constant, be faithful : All members adhere to a strict code of practice.
be faithful, follow, support, respect, observe, be true, obey, be devoted, be attached, keep to, be loyal ; He urged them to adhere to the values of Islam.

these are all action words and require something of us, so I guess my definition of works is different then what normally comes to mind, because to me, my definition is all the action words above that help define the words "believe in"..

remember in James when he said that even the demons believe and tremble, well their version of belief was only believing that he exist, which why James goes onto to show us the correct version of belief that is required to be saved, he compares saving belief with faith. they are essentally the same thing, then he goes on to say that faith without works is dead, thereby describing the correct definition of belief
and the works he spoke of, being those action words above that define "adhere to"

[Helovesme]

BroRog, if it is not to much trouble could you explain the differences? or what is the difference between reformed eternal security and just plain eternal security?