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Thread: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

  1. #1
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    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

    KJV Version
    Genesis 2:17
    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

    Genesis 3:4
    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die


    Question #1: When God created man was Man supposed to live forever without dying?

    Questin #2: Is Genesis 2:17 speaking of Physical or Spiritual Death?

    Question #3: If you are a believer in Eternal Torment how is the Serpent's "Lie" a ... Lie. Because in the Eternal Torment doctrine you technically never die. You are conscience for eternity.

    Question #4: What is Death?

    Thanks
    Last edited by Realist1981; Aug 30th 2011 at 03:52 AM. Reason: Forgot the Question 4 shouldve Read What is Death and Question 1 was off a bit too
    I didnt know the link didnt work

  2. #2
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    Re: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

    Quote Originally Posted by Realist1981 View Post
    KJV Version
    Genesis 2:17
    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

    Genesis 3:4
    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die


    Question #1: When God created man as Man supposed to live forever without dying?

    Questin #2: Is Genesis 2:17 speaking of Physical or Spiritual Death?

    Question #3: If you are a believer in Eternal Torment how is the Serpent's "Lie" a ... Lie. Because in the Eternal Torment doctrine you technically never die. You are conscience for eternity.

    Question #4: What if Death?

    Thanks
    This is my take on it...
    1) thats difficult to say, but we do know that after Adam disobeyed God he was prevented access to the tree of life
    2) both, physical and spiritual. In the case of physical, we know that Adam was prevented access from the tree of life lest he eat from it and live forever. Spiritual death though I take to mean the spiritual separation from God. While the soul lives on, living on in separation from God is spiritual death. The word death though to us meas a ceasing to exist, and I don't think that is how, spiritually speaking anyway, it means that we cease to exist all together

    3) I believe from God's perspective, having men separated from Him is the same as them being dead, and for the man, suffering eternal punishment is spiritual death, though we don't cease to exist, those in that situation may very well wish they could just cease to exist..

    4)




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    Re: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

    Quote Originally Posted by quiet dove View Post
    This is my take on it...
    1) thats difficult to say, but we do know that after Adam disobeyed God he was prevented access to the tree of life
    2) both, physical and spiritual. In the case of physical, we know that Adam was prevented access from the tree of life lest he eat from it and live forever. Spiritual death though I take to mean the spiritual separation from God. While the soul lives on, living on in separation from God is spiritual death. The word death though to us meas a ceasing to exist, and I don't think that is how, spiritually speaking anyway, it means that we cease to exist all together

    3) I believe from God's perspective, having men separated from Him is the same as them being dead, and for the man, suffering eternal punishment is spiritual death, though we don't cease to exist, those in that situation may very well wish they could just cease to exist..

    4)
    Thanks QD.

    #2 sounds about right.
    I didnt know the link didnt work

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    Re: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

    Quote Originally Posted by Realist1981 View Post
    KJV Version
    Genesis 2:17
    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

    Genesis 3:4
    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die


    Question #1: When God created man was Man supposed to live forever without dying?
    They could have.

    Questin #2: Is Genesis 2:17 speaking of Physical or Spiritual Death?
    Death means DEATH.

    Question #3: If you are a believer in Eternal Torment how is the Serpent's "Lie" a ... Lie. Because in the Eternal Torment doctrine you technically never die. You are conscience for eternity.
    There is no "eternal torment" as in personal, conscious eternal torment.

    Question #4: What is Death?
    Exactly what it sounds like.

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    Re: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

    Quote Originally Posted by Realist1981 View Post
    KJV Version
    Genesis 2:17
    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

    Genesis 3:4
    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die


    Question #1: When God created man was Man supposed to live forever without dying?

    Questin #2: Is Genesis 2:17 speaking of Physical or Spiritual Death?

    Question #3: If you are a believer in Eternal Torment how is the Serpent's "Lie" a ... Lie. Because in the Eternal Torment doctrine you technically never die. You are conscience for eternity.

    Question #4: What is Death?

    Thanks
    Question 1.
    Man was created not to die. Death was the result of two things;
    • If you ate something and we cut you open 24 hours later we would find nothing of the original meal in you. That is, you have become organically one with what you ate. If you ate poison, the elements that are fatal to your body become organically one with it, and cause it to cease functioning after a time. Thus it was with the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was available, but God warned that it would be fatal. No other tree had this effect. Notice Adam was “commanded” to eat of ALL the trees, save one (Gen.2:16).
    • Sin. The act of disregarding God’s Words constitutes rebellion in the creature. The penalty for rebellion to God’s Laws is death (Rom.6:23). He is righteous and has no other option but to exact the legal retribution.
    If you ask botanists why we have thorns they cannot explain it. All they can tell you is that they are normal branches that have unnatural growth. So it is with the human body. We know that we age, but we don’t know why. We can generate life but we cannot stem death. In both cases something unnatural has corrupted something that would have otherwise functioned perfectly.

    Question 2.
    The concept of “spiritual death” is unknown to scripture. It is a tradition of expositors who try to explain Adam dying in one day. There is not one scripture in the whole bible that alludes to, or introduces “spiritual death.” There are two deaths in scripture - that of the body and that of the soul. “And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matt.10:28). Man is made of three parts, spirit, soul and body (1st Thess.5:23). At physical death, the spirit returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7), the soul goes to a place called Hades to await resurrection, and the body returns to the elements of the earth. The death that threatened Adam was physical death within one day and the death of the soul in Gehenna forever (lit. Greek for “hell”). The Greek word for “destruction” or “perdition” (which is the Lake of Fire) means “lack of well-being” (see Vine’s Expository Dictionary).

    Question 3.
    A believer cannot go to Eternal Torment. He/she may be chastised for a period of time, like Israel has these last 2’000 years, but they are eventually restored. This is because the substitutionary death of Jesus and the subsequent New Birth from above, which is a free gift for those who believe, is enough compensation for the worst of sins.

    The unbeliever who is found to have had evil works at the Judgment Seat of Christ, whether they are the Living (Matthew Chapter 25:31-46) or the Dead (the Great White Throne – Revelation 20:11-15) will be resurrected (because all men will be resurrected – 1st Cor.15:22, and Hades gives up its dead – Rev.20:13) before their judgment. That means that they go to Eternal Perdition, Eternal Destruction – the Lake of Fire bodily and with their souls. The resurrected body can never die. Thus, their suffering is eternal.

    Question 4.
    Death is the absence of life. Just like darkness is the absence of light. The operative condition is the active one. That is, life is vital, active and energetic. Death is the absence of these qualities. An animal (other than human or angle), whose spirit does not return to God but to earth at death (Ecc.3:19-21), enters oblivion at death. The cause of death in man is when his three parts are torn apart from each other. The spirit of man is his vitalizing (enlivening) part (Jas.2:26). When it leaves the body and returns to God, the man dies (Matt.27:50; Lk.23:46). The soul goes to Hades, the waiting place for the souls of men beneath the earth (Eph.4:8-10). It was here that our Lord Jesus met the believing criminal who was crucified with Him (Lk.23:43). The souls of men in Hades are conscious. They can feel torment, they can be comforted, they can see, they can comprehend and they can make requests (Lk.16:22-31).

    But man, who is a conscious being, whether in death or life, feels death as a degradation of life. Notice in 2nd Corinthians 5:1-10 that;
    • We have an earthly tabernacle (tent or dwelling) - this present body
    • A new and heavenly (in nature and origin) body is being fashioned for us
    • We groan in this earthly body because it is corrupted
    • Death is not good because we are naked without our bodies. A man cannot appear before God naked (Gen.3:9)

    Finally, I believe I owe you an explanation concerning Adam dying in one day (because, based on this misunderstanding the doctrine of “spiritual death” arose). When we approach scripture you must remember that God wrote it. That is, you have to find out how He sees things. To explain anything in the bible, God has written His book so that one part explains other parts of it. Thus, it is vital to apply things in the same manner that He views things. If we apply theses explanations correctly we come to the truth. If not, we end up creating traditions to help us over the insurmountable problems that arise. (The unending discussion of security of salvation, and/or pre- or post tribulation rapture are examples of this). So in order to explain why Adam should die in a day, and yet he lived 930 years, we have to search scripture to see HOW GOD RECKONS A DAY, not man. God reckons a day in four ways in His Book.
    • The evening and the morning – a twenty-four hour period (Gen.1:5)
    • A year (Ezek.4:6)
    • A thousand years (Ps.90:4; 2nd Pet.3:8)
    • An event like judgment day (Isa.34:8)

    So by applying logic and honesty, the only two things accorded to men (and they often disregard them), we can come to an explanation. Notice that while God restored the earth in 6 twenty-four hour periods in Genesis Chapter 1, God purposely does not give the length of the seventh day. Why? Because He wants all students of the bible to understand what the Sabbath is. He is going to introduce a future Sabbath, which is His Rest, and His people's rest (Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4, especially 4:9-10). The Sabbath is exclusively a matter of covenant between God and Israel (Ex.31:16; Lev.24:8). So in His Book, God wants to establish the length of the first Sabbath, so that all students of His Word can establish the length of the future Sabbath. By applying the four different days established from scripture above, only one fits logic – 1'000 years. The first Sabbath, the one in which Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge or Good and Evil, was 1’000 years in God’s sight. The coming Sabbath Rest for Israel, when they are restored and live in bliss in their Land, and have our Lord Jesus reigning over the whole earth from Jerusalem, will be 1’000 years (Rev.20:4-6).

    If we explain the mystery of “the day in which Adam died” from scripture, we also crush the last foundation of “spiritual death” – a tradition of men.

    Hope this helps

  6. #6

    Re: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

    Quote Originally Posted by Realist1981 View Post
    KJV Version
    Genesis 2:17
    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

    Genesis 3:4
    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die


    Question #1: When God created man was Man supposed to live forever without dying?

    Questin #2: Is Genesis 2:17 speaking of Physical or Spiritual Death?

    Question #3: If you are a believer in Eternal Torment how is the Serpent's "Lie" a ... Lie. Because in the Eternal Torment doctrine you technically never die. You are conscience for eternity.

    Question #4: What is Death?

    Thanks
    I think if we study the word for death it doesn't mean spiritual death but physical death.

    Strong's definition
    1) death, dying, Death (personified), realm of the dead

    a) death

    b) death by violence (as a penalty)

    c) state of death, place of death

    Die-
    1) to die, kill, have one executed

    a) (Qal)

    1) to die

    2) to die (as penalty), be put to death

    3) to die, perish (of a nation)

    4) to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)

    b) (Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch

    c) (Hiphil) to kill, put to death

    d) (Hophal)

    1) to be killed, be put to death

    a) to die prematurely

    We simply read spiritual death into it because of what we have been told, not because of what it actually says.

  7. #7
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    Re: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

    Quote Originally Posted by Realist1981 View Post
    KJV Version
    Genesis 2:17
    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

    Genesis 3:4
    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die


    Question #1: When God created man was Man supposed to live forever without dying?

    Questin #2: Is Genesis 2:17 speaking of Physical or Spiritual Death?

    Question #3: If you are a believer in Eternal Torment how is the Serpent's "Lie" a ... Lie. Because in the Eternal Torment doctrine you technically never die. You are conscience for eternity.

    Question #4: What is Death?

    Thanks



    I think of we put 2 and 2 together, we can answer both questions.#1 and #2.

    Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


    The only way that man could die, man would have to first eat f the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. For the sake of argument, man stays away from the tree, never eats from it. Wouldn't this imply man is immortal during this time, since he can't die?

    Now let's say that man does eventually partakes of the tree. which he eventually does, and now he dies. Doesn't this also imply man was at first, unable to die? What about when he stayed away from the tree? He couldn't die, right? So when man finally does partake of the tree, in what manner does man die? Physically, right? Don't all men die physically at some point?

    Now as far as the third question. The Bible calls it the 2nd death, in regards to those cast into the LOF. OTOH, only those of the first resurrection can't be hurt of the 2nd death. Clearly those of the first resurrection obtain eternal life, the reason they can't be hurt of a 2nd death, in which there is no returning from. So putting 2 and 2 together then, if the first resurrection means to live forever, then what would the 2nd death mean, since it would have to be the opposite of living forever?

    As far as the 4th question. When one dies physically, their body dies, yet their soul exists elsewhere at that point. From this, we could conclude that death is some form of separation. But there is still another death for some..the 2nd death. All of the separating occurred at the first death. One was separated from the body, and also eternally separated from God, if they went to hell. With that in mind, death being understood as a separation of sorts, what is left to be separated at the 2nd death? Nothing that I can think of. Perhaps then, the 2nd death is to be understood in a different sense. I'm still debating this one in my mind tho.

  8. #8
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    Re: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

    Walls and everyone else thanks for your responses it helped.
    I didnt know the link didnt work

  9. #9

    Re: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

    Quote Originally Posted by Realist1981 View Post


    Question #1: When God created man was Man supposed to live forever without dying?
    I believe so, although I'd assume at some point God would have a transfiguration man change the flesh to a higher form.


    Questin #2: Is Genesis 2:17 speaking of Physical or Spiritual Death?
    I believe it was actual death, but that the "day" would be one by God's time and not earthly time so they did indeed die within a day of that timeframe. As for spiritual or what i prefer "symbolic death" that happened when they disobeyed, not within a day's time but immediately.



    Question #3: If you are a believer in Eternal Torment how is the Serpent's "Lie" a ... Lie. Because in the Eternal Torment doctrine you technically never die. You are conscience for eternity.
    That would be after judgement day, long after any definition of a day could be so I don't believe it applies. But, if souls arent destroyed by God then yes they don't die a second death but there is a second death and destruction of the soul:

    Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



    Question #4: What is Death?
    The end of life. There many different kinds of death but the two literal ones are death of the body, and death of the soul.

  10. #10
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    Re: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

    Realist1981, why is it that you couldn't come up with some DIFFICULT QUESTIONS!!! (That's a joke, people!)

    I do want to say this, I honestly believe with all my heart that once that serpent, that thing, in the Garden of Eden said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die"...at that instant in time, the belief in reincarnation was born! Think about it. He told her, "You shall not SURELY die!" In effect, he could convince her in her mind that even if she did die, she would be born again as something else or someone else.
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  11. #11

    Re: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    Realist1981, why is it that you couldn't come up with some DIFFICULT QUESTIONS!!! (That's a joke, people!)

    I do want to say this, I honestly believe with all my heart that once that serpent, that thing, in the Garden of Eden said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die"...at that instant in time, the belief in reincarnation was born! Think about it. He told her, "You shall not SURELY die!" In effect, he could convince her in her mind that even if she did die, she would be born again as something else or someone else.
    What?

    That makes no sense. "he didnt say, even if you die you will just get reborn again"

  12. #12

    Re: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

    Quote Originally Posted by Realist1981 View Post
    KJV Version
    Genesis 2:17
    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

    Genesis 3:4
    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die


    Question #1: When God created man was Man supposed to live forever without dying?

    Questin #2: Is Genesis 2:17 speaking of Physical or Spiritual Death?

    Question #3: If you are a believer in Eternal Torment how is the Serpent's "Lie" a ... Lie. Because in the Eternal Torment doctrine you technically never die. You are conscience for eternity.

    Question #4: What is Death?

    Thanks
    Question #1: Man was created as a two part creation…

    Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in (1) our image, after our (2) likeness:

    We are made in the image of God, but not in the likeness yet. We are flesh, we are not glorified sons and daughters of God yet…
    Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Take the old hatpin test to see if you are flesh or spirit. We are flesh with the promise of becoming spirit.

    Man is given the promise of eternal life, but is not born possessing it…

    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    So, was man to live forever? No and yes. Man was not supposed to live forever in the flesh but he was to become a son or daughter of God and be given eternal life.

    ************************************************** **********************************

    Question #2: Both, if man had never sinned, the flesh would still wear out. God’s purpose is to bring sons and daughters into His family. Not in the flesh, but in His likeness, in spirit. Again, we are a two part creation…

    Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

    image:

    H6754
    צלם
    tselem
    tseh'-lem
    From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.

    likeness:

    H1823
    דּמוּת
    demûth
    dem-ooth'
    From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.

    ************************************************** *********************************

    Question #3: I do not believe the lie…

    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

    The punishment of the wicked is to be burned up to ashes. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life separated from God in eternal torment.

    ************************************************** ***********************************

    Question #4: Death is the cessation of life, the cessation of thought, the complete destruction of the person.

    Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    Psa 49:10 For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others.
    Psa 49:11 Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue for ever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names.
    Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

    Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

    Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
    Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
    Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

    NIV: Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

    NLT: For who can prove that the human spirit goes up and the spirit of animals goes down into the earth?

    Bible in Basic English: Who is certain that the spirit of the sons of men goes up to heaven, or that the spirit of the beasts goes down to the earth?

    Douay-Rheims: Who knoweth if the spirit of the children of Adam ascend upward, and if the spirit of the beasts descend downward?

    Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

    Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    perish:


    G622
    ἀπόλλυμι
    apollumi
    ap-ol'-loo-mee
    From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

    Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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