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Thread: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16 (moved from AE subforum)

  1. #1

    Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16 (moved from AE subforum)

    Hello,

    I was looking for an answer in Google for the correct interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16, and I found some discussion about it here. I'm interested in writing an article in my blog (in Spanish) about that verse.

    As some of you may know, there is this sect that misinterprets this verse to argue that Jesus is archangel Michael. This is what I found in their website (watchtower dot org):

    "God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is called the archangel. This suggests that there is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4: 16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael"

    I know this is plain wrong -- it's a corrupted interpretation of the Bible. Now I'll try to explain in plain words (again) in Spanish why I believe this is wrong. I'm particularly interested in the text "with the voice of an archangel".

    In the Biblos Interlinear Bible and text analysis for this verse I found the original Greek phrase:

    My question is with regard of the preposition "ἐν" which means (according to Strong's 1722): in, on, at, by, with.

    Do you guys believe that a better translation of that phrase would be: "in the voice of a chief-messenger" (Young's Literal Translation see last version in that page)?

    Do you guys believe that it could mean that Jesus will not be using the trumpet but another angel? Perhaps Michael (since he's the only archangel mentioned in our Bible and I think that in that fact only the JW are correct)? Perhaps what this verse really mean is that Jesus is in charge of the Heavenly Army (or something like that) but Michael will be the angel who is making the noise with the trumpet (sorry if I'm not using the right English words)? Or that when the trumpet sounds then Jesus (who is not making the trumpet sound) will come and meet with all the elected in the rapture time?

    Could this be a case when King James is not the best translation (in fact even most translations I've seen in both English and Spanish use the word "with" or its equivalent in Spanish) and that perhaps Young's Literal Translation is the most accurate?

    Is there anything else I could say in my future post to show that Jesus is NOT Michael? I know there was several verses mentioned in that post above (in this forum again here) but which would be the most appropriate in your opinion to mention with this stated goal?

    Do you know if there is a verse in the Old Testament where it shows (for instance) that Kings were not the ones making the trumpet sounds? So far I can only think of Rev 11:15 as an example where the angels make this type of trumpet sound.... Also the 7th trumpet sound of Revelation 11:15 the same of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16? I do know there are difference of opinions on this but if the answer is yes/no can/should I still mention it?

    Thank you and sorry if I'm "invading" you with questions...

    Carlos
    Last edited by rockiniowa; Aug 30th 2011 at 09:50 AM. Reason: To add a link to Strong's corcondance where it shows the meaning of word 1722.

  2. #2

    Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 NLT
    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves.

    This plainly says that Jesus will come with a shout AND with the voice of AN ARCHANGEL. There are many archangels. Gabriel is one angel named in Scripture that would fit the description of an archangel, also, so it may not be Michael, the only one so named. There will also be a blast of the trumpet of God---perhaps the shofar will sound, as in the ancient Jewish wedding, announcing the coming of the bridegroom for his waiting bride.

    The word is definitive that Jesus comes, THE LORD HIMSELF! and that He is Jesus and none other!

    I would advise not to take stock of anything that Watchtower says, as its source is the spirit of error.

  3. #3

    Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    VII. Ancient Wedding Practice:


    Bridegroom Comes for His Bride


    When the bridegroom's father deemed the wedding chamber ready, the father would tell the bridegroom that all was ready and to get His bride. The bridegroom would abduct his bride secretly, like a thief at night and take her to the wedding chamber. As the bridegroom approached the bride's home, he would shout and blow the shofar (ram's horn trumpet) so that she had some warning to gather her belongings to take into the wedding chamber. The bridegroom and his friends would come into the bride's house and get the bride and her bridesmaids.



    Jesus' Fulfillment: Bridegroom Comes for His Bride

    Just as the bridegroom would come for the bride in the middle of the night, with a shout and the sound of a shofar, so the Lord will come for us. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17




    Source:

    http://www.bridalcovenant.com/wedding1.html

  4. #4
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    Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    Rockiniowa, I would put NO confidence in anything that is said on that site. You do know that the Watchtower is the Jehovah's Witnesses, don't you? Clearly and plainly, to every Christian denomination...that is a cult. And who in their right mind wants to believe what a cult says??

    They have their own erroneous Bible, falsely translated. (The New World Translation) The Watchtower Society TELLS all Jehovah's Witnesses what to believe.
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  5. #5

    Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    Diggindeeper,

    Yes I know that this website comes from the JW, and the article I'd love to write someday are for those JW I hope some day some of them (especially their new converts) can see the truth. They can be also saved. One day two JW ladies came to my house to talk about their pseudo gospel and one of them had never heard of the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). She taght I was talking about the Lazarus Jesus resurrected.

    I have reached the conclusion that most of them really don't know even their own Bible (unless they are the "elders"). They only follow up verses mentioned in ther literature and that's it.

    Their argument that Jesus is an angel is so week that in the quote I mentioned above they basically only verse that appears to support their false premises (and that's because they missinterpet). They really don't have any other argument because their arguments are completely false. Actually, they had a second argument that went like this: "since in this part of the Bible Michael appears to be in charge of the heavenly army and in this other part of the Bible Jesus was the head of the heavenly Army, then Michael and Jesus must be the same". Something really ridiculous that wasn't even worthy to go on.

    But these people are real and they are going to go the hell (a place they don't even believe it exists) if we don't share with them the truth Gospel. But in doing so we need to know at least the most basic of their belifs. Sure, we need to know the truth of the Bible and that must be our main priority, but I then I believe every Christian should also know a little bit of this sect and a little bit more of the other sect.

    Carlos

  6. #6
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    Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    Dear Rockiniowa

    A trumpet in the bible is for calling a gathering (Ex.19:3; Nu.10:4 etc.). If you piece scripture together, especially the rapture of our Lord Jesus, you will find that angels will carry the Christian up in rapture. Our Lord Jesus did not go up to heaven by His own power. He was “carried” (Lk.24:51). Paul was “caught” up (2nd Cor. 12:2). Likewise, the Christians will be “caught away” in rapture - all by angels. So the trumpet in the verse under discussion is that trumpet that calls all in Christ, the dead first, and then the living, to meet Jesus in the air. My reading of the various literal translations indicates that it will be an angel-messenger who blows this trumpet. Christ called all men while in humility on earth. But now He comes as King with pomp and majesty. The servant angels now do the calling.

    The shout also, according to the grammar, must be of the messenger angel. This angel, because of the high position of the One to be announced, must be an archangel. The angel is most probably Gabriel. John Baptist, the earthly announcer of Jesus, is announced by Gabriel (Lk.1:19). Then our Lord Jesus was announced by Gabriel (Lk.1:26). In Daniel Chapter 9, it is Gabriel who announces “the most Holy” Who will “finish the transgression (of Daniel’s people Israel) and make and end of sins” (Dan.9:24). Gabriel would have a very high position, most likely that of an archangel, because it is he “that stands in the presence of God” (Lk.1:19).

    Hope this helps

  7. #7

    Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    Originally posted by rockiniowa
    Is there anything else I could say in my future post to show that Jesus is NOT Michael?
    When Paul says the Lord comes with the voice of an archangel, he's only making a comparison to what the Lords voice will sound like. He's not saying Jesus is an angel.

    Hebrews 1 clearly teaches that Jesus isn't and was never an angel.

    When Jude says Michael disputed with Satan about Moses body, he writes that Michael said, "The Lord rebuke you." Jesus is the Lord.

  8. #8
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    Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    The rapture in 1st Thessalonians concerns the Church. Michael is obviously the archangel for Israel, not the Church. In Daniel 10:21 he is “your prince”, that is, Daniel, a captive Jew. In Daniel 12:1 it is “Michael shall deliver Israel…”. And in Jude 1:9 Michael contends for Moses’ body. Moses is the most famous Jew, deliverer of Israel and giver of their Law.

  9. #9
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    Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    Paul isn't saying that Jesus will come with a new or different voice. He is saying that Jesus will come when the Archangel shouts a command (voice) to the other angels.

  10. Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    this is talking about the second coming of Christ. some will try to insert a secret 1/2 return that Christ never told us about and He Himself said He told us all things. every verse these folks use to justify false doctrine is NOT a rapture but the return of Christ at the second advent. Of course this view needs to be backed up in the word and it is. lets look at Matt 24 where Christ says He returns after the tribulation and after the antiChrist. anybody who says different is preaching another gospel than Jesus Christ. here's the words of Christ and notice verse 29 and we need to reference this first so we know the signs of His coming and what MUST take place before HIS return.




    Matthew 24

    1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

    2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

    11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

    13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

    18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25Behold, I have told you before.

    26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

    39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.





    the stones are still there in Jerusalem if you notice the wailing wall, it's still there and stone is upon stone still, if people try to say little titus destroyed it all in 70ad, How come the wall is still there? was Christ mistaken when He said NO stone left upon another? God Forbid. funny the words He chose.



    now that should settle the "basic when" (and yes no man knows the day or hour ,it didn't say anything about year and month) or signs of His return. the temple is still partly there and the wailing wall so obviously nobody with common sense would call Jesus a liar, no way!


    now which trump does Christ return on? there are 7 in the book of revelations and true Christ doesn't return till the 19th chapter, there's a whole lot of tribulation to go through cause again Christ said He comes after the rib.


    Matthew 24:31
    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other


    1 Corinthians 15:52
    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (notice it says the 7th last trump in line with what Christ says and in line with the book of revelation ...this is the second coming not a secret 1/2 coming that Christ NEVER told us about cause He said He told us ALL things even about all things and if it was for us to know or not




    1 thes 4 is about the saved dead and the second advent... NOT some secret rapture



    13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.


    them that sleep are the dead as Christ referred to the little girl sleeping. right?

    14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    we HAVE to believe Christ rose from the dead to be a Christian right? and it says those who are saved dead or sleeping with Christ He will bring them with HIM. flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom can it? and when Christ returns it will be the end of the world cause the elements (physical matter) will melt and we'll be changed in the twinkling of an eye because our skins fall off us and the birds eats the flesh of man.

    15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    how can we prevent them, they are already there right? they dead in Christ rise first when ..when they die in their own time. we saved are NOT in a hole in the ground as the unsaved are we? NO see the story of lazarus and the rich man.


    16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    now these verses should be easily understood.. the trump is the last trump the 7th (666 comes before 777 as Christ said so right?) the dead shall rise first when they die cause He will bring them back right?

    18Wherefore comfort one another with these words





    Here's more proof that Christ comes after the antiChrist comes disguised as Christ, but we know a false rapture or false Christ will not fool us because HE said the elements will melt when True Christ returns.



    2 Thessalonians 2

    1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    don't believe in secrets the LORD never told us about, inserted 1/2 returns for just a select few? didn't Christ die for all and returns like lightning...where's the secret in that? none because He said He told us all things right?


    4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


    this is the antiChrist disguised as Christ and those who believe the false Christ will be harvested out of season, with the tares, their flight will be out of season, lose their spiritual virginity, pregnant and giving suck to a spiritual baby of satan when Christ returns. paul says he wants to present us a spiritual virgins unlike eve who was wholly seduced by satan in the garden. the father of cain as Christ said so.

    5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

    7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


    this is refers to michael the archangel casting satan out of heaven. some say this is the Holy Spirit but it's michael's job to confront satan and his demons (jude, etc) some also try to say the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the world, is not the Holy Spirit GOD? who can take God out anywhere? and isn't it impossible for GOD to not be everywhere seeing that HE is omnipresent?

    8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    the brightness of his coming,the heavens and earth on fire, the elements melt



    9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


    AFTER satan and his great wonders to make his children believe him to be Christ and the false Christians fall away



    10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    hear this truth and put it as oil in your lamp

    11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


    satan disguised as antiChrist who will be in the world very soon.

    12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

    17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


    elements melt:

    2 Peter 3:10
    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    # 2 Peter 3:12
    Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


    2 Thessalonians 2:8
    And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


    the last trump
    REV 19:11

    Matthew 20:16
    So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen

    Matthew 22:14
    For many are called, but few are chosen.

    I hope this helps you and you hear HIS voice

  11. #11

    Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    John 14:2-3 (NLV)
    There are many rooms in My Father’s house. If it were not so, I would have told you. I am going away to make a place for you. After I go and make a place for you, I will come back and take you with Me. Then you may be where I am.


    This is the Rapture Jesus is talking about, likening Himself to the ancient Jewish Bridegroom who comes suddenly to take his bride away with him to his home.

  12. Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    Christ returns to earth it melts , we are taken to where HE is, He is in the spirit, we will be taken in the spirit. there will be a flight but pray that it's not (in winter)out of season, cause the tares are taken first, then the wheat is gathered to his barn. we will ALL go through the 1000 yr tribulation of Christ. some will be made priests and Kings (Ezekiel think it starts around 40 to the end of the chap is all about the 1000 yr day of the Lord) the second advent is mentioned several times in the bible , the rapture is NEVER mentioned because it's a false teaching and the Father talks all about this false teaching in EZE 13. believe me brother this rapture is a trick of satan to harvest you out of season. don't won't to be one of those the Lord says depart from ME I never knew thee. study it very very close.

  13. #13

    Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchmen 4 Christ View Post
    Christ returns to earth it melts
    Really? Where does it say that the earth melts when He comes, seeing as He will establish His earthly Kingdom at that point and occupy the throne of David for 1000 years?

    we are taken to where HE is, He is in the spirit, we will be taken in the spirit.
    Where does it say that, when the Scriptures clearly state that we will be given imperishable bodies---like His?

    there will be a flight but pray that it's not (in winter)out of season, cause the tares are taken first, then the wheat is gathered to his barn. we will ALL go through the 1000 yr tribulation of Christ.
    Tribulation is for seven years. His earthly reign is for 1000 years.

    some will be made priests and Kings (Ezekiel think it starts around 40 to the end of the chap is all about the 1000 yr day of the Lord) the second advent is mentioned several times in the bible , the rapture is NEVER mentioned because it's a false teaching and the Father talks all about this false teaching in EZE 13. believe me brother this rapture is a trick of satan to harvest you out of season. don't won't to be one of those the Lord says depart from ME I never knew thee. study it very very close.
    Study more. I see a lot of false teaching in your comments.

  14. Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    look at what I just posted the verses of the Lord's day. Have you read it? the Lord's day begins when the LORD returns.

    well what else does flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom mean?
    how can man stand before the LORD in flesh?
    in the twinkling of an eye we are all changed? hummmm
    Yes He reigns for 1000 yrs and ALL SOULS go through it, those that pierced my hands ....


    really brother the words of God speak for themselves don't they?

  15. Re: Correct Interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4: 16: WITH the voice of an archangel

    elements melt:

    2 Peter 3:10
    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    # 2 Peter 3:12
    Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


    2 Thessalonians 2:8
    And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

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