Question for Fenris

[keck553]

Genesis 3 -

To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”

Fenris, does the hebrew word for "desire" used here convey a sense of desire of a woman to be loved, respected, acknowledged (which is typically not fulfilled by their husbands), or does it convey a sense of a woman grappling for domination over her husband (as I have heard so many times)?

Or perhaps something else. What do the sages say?

[NewInHim]

With no disrespect or sarcasm, I feel loved, respected and acknowledged by my husband, and my friends "typically" have great husbands too.

Interested in Fenris' reply.

[Fenris]

Hmm.

It doesn't use the word I expected for "desire", the word might better be translated as "passion" (I think), which ties it to the first part of the sentence and not the last part. "You will have painful childbirth but you will still have passion towards your husband (even though it will mean another painful childbirth)".

[keck553]

Hmm.

It doesn't use the word I expected for "desire", the word might better be translated as "passion" (I think), which ties it to the first part of the sentence and not the last part. "You will have painful childbirth but you will still have passion towards your husband (even though it will mean another painful childbirth)".

That helps much. Todah, many thanks.

[Walls]

I hope not to butt into a private discussion, but I may have something to add.

Sometimes it helps to see how God uses a word elsewhere. It is used only three times in the Hebrew, namely; Genesis 3:16, 4:7 and Song of Solomon 7:10. As the first one, that is, Genesis 3:16 is in question here, we must turn to the other two for evidence. Song of Solomon 7:10 is seems to supports what Fenris has said. But Genesis 4:7 seems to support the other meaning; “Sin would seek to rule over you.” What remains then is the context.

The context of Genesis 3:16 is the man’s headship over the woman. I could be wrong, but I would lean to the meaning that although God has instituted a governmental system that was not in place before sin came, namely, the man is head over the woman, the woman would attempt, wherever possible, to usurp this headship.

That Paul addresses this issue in multiple places seems to add evidence to this. Then of course, there is our practical experience in life, especially in the western world, where there is strong political and legal energy from the anti-biblical establishment to overthrow the headship of the man. On top of this, all of us who are, or have been married, can testify that sometimes the woman will use all her multiple persuasive tactics to get her way. I hope you ladies realize that I have a smile on my face. I’ve had a successful marriage to my first wife, and love of my youth, for 33 years, but not without its conflicts of will.

What say the others?

[Fenris]

I don't think it's a man's place to rule over women. That just happens to be the way the world is. That is it the consequence of a curse does not mean divine approval on the concept, simply a statement of fact.

[Ta-An]

I just think here of the Ephesians scripture that says: Wives submit to your husbands.. and how difficult some women finds it to submit to their husbands...
This desire I see as that the woman wants to be the head over her husband,,, her desire is to rule over him.... but he will rule over the woman.

Remember it was the woman (Eve) who came to her husband (Adam) and tempted him into partaking of what they were not allowed..... so the woman really wants to be the "boss" BUT, God said NO! Your husband will rule over you, submit!

It is for the protection of a wife that she has to submit to her own husband...

[keck553]

Adam built a fence around the commandment and in that moment created mistrust. Man has been doing this ever since....that is why Paul exhorts men to ....STOP IT.

[Fenris]

It is for the protection of a wife that she has to submit to her own husband...

I don't find this a convincing point. IMHO men are more likely to sin than women are.

[Ta-An]

I don't find this a convincing point. IMHO men are more likely to sin than women are.

Uhmmmm, what I meant is that a woman is only required to submit to her own husband, and not men in general

[Fenris]

Uhmmmm, what I meant is that a woman is only required to submit to her own husband, and not men in general

I don't think a woman submitting to her husband makes her any less likely to sin.

[Ta-An]

I don't think a woman submitting to her husband makes her any less likely to sin.

The rest of the Ephesians Scripture says : That it is the responsibility of the Husband to sanctify his Wife with the instruction of the Word.
When a Wife is loved, and receives loving instruction from her Husband,,, she is less likely to sin

[Fenris]

When a Wife is loved, and receives loving instruction from her Husband,,, she is less likely to sin

Maybe a wife makes her husband less likely to sin. Is that possible?

[Ta-An]

Maybe a wife makes her husband less likely to sin. Is that possible?

Yup it is very possible

[Fenris]

Yup it is very possible

Maybe husbands should submit to their wives then?