Re: Just WHO is the God of Jesus Christ?
I am not saying Jesus is two persons in one. I am saying that He was both Divine and human in one person. That was the point that Sojourner 55 was making as well.
I am not denying that Jesus became human, but Jesus did not have a dual nature. He left being a spirit "Son of God" in heaven and was born as a human through Mary. He remained being "the Word" or Logos", God's chief spokeman, but was now a human, not spirit. He is not the incarnate "Son of God", as if he is God in human form. In heaven he was a spirit, but gave that up to become as us, a human of flesh and blood, though perfect, that could stub his toe and feel pain or bleed if cut. It was Nestorius, an early 5th-century patriarch of Constantinople, who apparently taught that Christ was actually two persons in one, the human Jesus and the divine Son of God. According to this teaching, Mary gave birth to the man but not to the divine Son.
So Jesus had two natures that were indivisible. That's precisely what I meant. We never said He had a divided nature.
that although of two natures, Jesus was in reality only one, wholly God and at the same time wholly man.
Yes, and Arius' teachings were rejected as unbiblical, because he, like you, taught that Jesus was inferior to God, and a created being.
Both of these theories were outgrowths of the controversy that had arisen during the previous century, in which Arius, an Alexandrian priest, argued that Christ was inferior to the Father.
So doesnt the fact that He "emptied" Himself possibly explain some of the qualities He possessed (as a man) that you say prove He was not YHWH? In other words, since Jesus became like us in every way, as Hebrews 2:17 says, wouldnt that include the fact that He would submit Himself to the Father, be tempted of the devil, depend on the Holy Spirit, hunger, thirst, suffer, and even die. Was it possible for the LOGOS in His Pre-existence to be tempted? No, yet as the incarnate LOGOS who was made flesh and dwelt among us was tempted in every way that we are tempted, yet without sin. Was it possible for the Preexistent LOGOS to suffer and die? Not in His Pre-existent state, but He took upon Himself flesh and blood so that He could taste death for every man. So we see that your statements about Jesus' kenosis actually confirm my position that just because Jesus became like us in every way in His Incarnation does not necessarily mean that He was like us in His Pre-existent state. All of your arguments that Jesus is not YHWH because of self imposed limitations fall by the wayside on this very point.
At 1 Corinthians 15:50, the apostle Paul wrote that "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption." Hence, he says: "Look ! I tell you a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep (in death, in which in death, is awaiting until Christ's "presence" to be resurrected, 1 Cor 15:23), but we shall all be changed, in a moment." (1 Cor 15:51, 52) Therefore, just as those who "belong to Christ" (2 Cor 1:21) are changed from a fleshly body upon their death and receive a spiritual one, so likewise Jesus "emptied himself (as a spirit Son of God) and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake."(Phil 2:7, 8) What did Paul next say ? Was Jesus considered as God ?
If Jesus was killed on a torture stake, why did they use more than one nail ( se John 20:25). I know that the answer you give will in no way validate or invalidate your argument, but I am just asking out of curiousity.
Because it was necessary for Jesus to become like us in every way and walk the path that we must walk. Do we need to live in humble trust and submission to the Father? Yes, and so Jesus in order to be the Captain of our salvation became obedient to the Father and depended on the Holy Spirit just as it is necessary for us to do. Don't you understand that Jesus had to walk the very path that we walk so that we could follow in His Footsteps? ( 1 Peter 2:21) Come on now Guestman!!! Can you lay aside your presuppositions long enough to hear sound doctrine?
How could Jesus be God and yet fulfill verse 13, which says: "I will have trust in him" ( trust in whom
? quoting from Isaiah 8:17) And again: "Look ! I and the young children whom Jehovah gave me" ( how could Jesus be God and yet Jehovah give him "children"
? quoting from Isaiah 8:18) ?
The text says He was raised to supreme majesty. Jesus had supreme majesty in His Pre-existent state, He humbled and emptied Himself in the Incarnation, then He was once again exalted to His Majestic and lofty position in the ascension when His earthly ministry was completed. What's so complicated about that? In humbling Himself and submitting Himself in obedience to the Father, He was Highly exalted. Now the exaltation was a return to His previous state as the Pre-existent LOGOS, but the marvelous truth that comes out of this is that the in the Christ act, ( ie the Incarnation, Christ's humility, submission, suffering, death, resurrection and subsequent exaltation, true believers were raised up to sit with Him in heavenly places. ( Colossians 3)
Yes, following his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was given the glory as he had in heaven prior to coming to the earth.(John 17:5) How though could Jesus be God and yet be "exalted
to a superior position" ? If he was God before coming to the earth, then he could only be placed back to where he was, not
"exalted to a superior position". The ability to reason effectively
on the Bible without already having prejudicial beliefs is that which many are unwilling to do. These do not let the Bible speak for itself, but is determined to put a square peg in a round hole.
Now you believe that three days before his death, Jesus laid out an organized body of true worshipers that would provide "meat in due season" or real spiritual food from God, saying that the watchtower is is the faithful and wise servant. You believe that the Watchtower are the ones that Jehovah God is using to dispense "true food" and "true drink" in these "last days". Now this is very similar to the the Roman Catholic tradition that states that the Popes are the continuation of the Apostolic tradition, even though neither the Pope nor the Watchtower meet the qualifications of apostleship. You unquestioningly accept the Watchtowers' teachings, and your statements seem to indicate that you are not even allowed to question their teachings. Yet Even the Berean Christians were commended in that they examined Paul's teachings in light of the scriptures, to see if they were so. If it is commendable to examine the evidence to see if the apostles teachings are of Divine Origin, ( and they were clearly demonstrated to be so), why is it uncommendable to examine the Watchtowers teachings and track record to see if they are reliable? I can go back to the Old Testament and find confirmation for the entirety of the Apostles teaching. Can the same be said of the Watchtower? Can every one of their teachings down through the years be validated by the Word of God? Have all their prophecies come to pass as predicted. YHWH said that if a prophet speaks in His name, but what the prophet says does not come to pass, do not fear that prophet!
By the way, the Watchtower is not the pillar and ground of the truth according to 1 Timothy 3:15- "But if I tarry long , that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." Now, just who is the house of God? Jesus did not say that upon the Watchtower He would build His Church. He did not say whoever hears the words of the Watchtower and believes will be saved, He said whosoever hears my words. He did not say that the Watchtower would guide us into all truth, but that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth. He did not say that if any man lacks wisdom, let Him consult the Watchtower, He said if any man lack wisdom let him ask of God. John did not say, you have the Watchtower, therefore you know, he said you have an unction of the Holy One and you know. Jesus did not say whoever believes in the Watchtower will not perish, He said whoever believes on the only begotten Son will not perish but have eternal life.
It is better to put your trust in God, then to put it in men.
I am finished with this discussion. Thanks for the interesting conversation. You are in my prayers.
Last edited by glad4mercy; Jan 16th 2012 at 08:30 PM.
1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.