Just WHO is the God of Jesus Christ?

[glad4mercy]

I am not denying that Jesus became human, but Jesus did not have a dual nature. He left being a spirit "Son of God" in heaven and was born as a human through Mary. He remained being "the Word" or Logos", God's chief spokeman, but was now a human, not spirit. He is not the incarnate "Son of God", as if he is God in human form. In heaven he was a spirit, but gave that up to become as us, a human of flesh and blood, though perfect, that could stub his toe and feel pain or bleed if cut. It was Nestorius, an early 5th-century patriarch of Constantinople, who apparently taught that Christ was actually two persons in one, the human Jesus and the divine Son of God. According to this teaching, Mary gave birth to the man but not to the divine Son.

I am not saying Jesus is two persons in one. I am saying that He was both Divine and human in one person. That was the point that Sojourner 55 was making as well.

that although of two natures, Jesus was in reality only one, wholly God and at the same time wholly man.

So Jesus had two natures that were indivisible. That's precisely what I meant. We never said He had a divided nature.

Both of these theories were outgrowths of the controversy that had arisen during the previous century, in which Arius, an Alexandrian priest, argued that Christ was inferior to the Father.

Yes, and Arius' teachings were rejected as unbiblical, because he, like you, taught that Jesus was inferior to God, and a created being.

At 1 Corinthians 15:50, the apostle Paul wrote that "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption." Hence, he says: "Look ! I tell you a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep (in death, in which in death, is awaiting until Christ's "presence" to be resurrected, 1 Cor 15:23), but we shall all be changed, in a moment." (1 Cor 15:51, 52) Therefore, just as those who "belong to Christ" (2 Cor 1:21) are changed from a fleshly body upon their death and receive a spiritual one, so likewise Jesus "emptied himself (as a spirit Son of God) and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake."(Phil 2:7, 8) What did Paul next say ? Was Jesus considered as God ?

So doesnt the fact that He "emptied" Himself possibly explain some of the qualities He possessed (as a man) that you say prove He was not YHWH? In other words, since Jesus became like us in every way, as Hebrews 2:17 says, wouldnt that include the fact that He would submit Himself to the Father, be tempted of the devil, depend on the Holy Spirit, hunger, thirst, suffer, and even die. Was it possible for the LOGOS in His Pre-existence to be tempted? No, yet as the incarnate LOGOS who was made flesh and dwelt among us was tempted in every way that we are tempted, yet without sin. Was it possible for the Preexistent LOGOS to suffer and die? Not in His Pre-existent state, but He took upon Himself flesh and blood so that He could taste death for every man. So we see that your statements about Jesus' kenosis actually confirm my position that just because Jesus became like us in every way in His Incarnation does not necessarily mean that He was like us in His Pre-existent state. All of your arguments that Jesus is not YHWH because of self imposed limitations fall by the wayside on this very point.

If Jesus was killed on a torture stake, why did they use more than one nail ( se John 20:25). I know that the answer you give will in no way validate or invalidate your argument, but I am just asking out of curiousity.

How could Jesus be God and yet fulfill verse 13, which says: "I will have trust in him" ( trust in whom ? quoting from Isaiah 8:17) And again: "Look ! I and the young children whom Jehovah gave me" ( how could Jesus be God and yet Jehovah give him "children" ? quoting from Isaiah 8:18) ?

Because it was necessary for Jesus to become like us in every way and walk the path that we must walk. Do we need to live in humble trust and submission to the Father? Yes, and so Jesus in order to be the Captain of our salvation became obedient to the Father and depended on the Holy Spirit just as it is necessary for us to do. Don't you understand that Jesus had to walk the very path that we walk so that we could follow in His Footsteps? ( 1 Peter 2:21) Come on now Guestman!!! Can you lay aside your presuppositions long enough to hear sound doctrine?

Yes, following his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was given the glory as he had in heaven prior to coming to the earth.(John 17:5) How though could Jesus be God and yet be "exalted to a superior position" ? If he was God before coming to the earth, then he could only be placed back to where he was, not "exalted to a superior position". The ability to reason effectively on the Bible without already having prejudicial beliefs is that which many are unwilling to do. These do not let the Bible speak for itself, but is determined to put a square peg in a round hole.

The text says He was raised to supreme majesty. Jesus had supreme majesty in His Pre-existent state, He humbled and emptied Himself in the Incarnation, then He was once again exalted to His Majestic and lofty position in the ascension when His earthly ministry was completed. What's so complicated about that? In humbling Himself and submitting Himself in obedience to the Father, He was Highly exalted. Now the exaltation was a return to His previous state as the Pre-existent LOGOS, but the marvelous truth that comes out of this is that the in the Christ act, ( ie the Incarnation, Christ's humility, submission, suffering, death, resurrection and subsequent exaltation, true believers were raised up to sit with Him in heavenly places. ( Colossians 3)

Now you believe that three days before his death, Jesus laid out an organized body of true worshipers that would provide "meat in due season" or real spiritual food from God, saying that the watchtower is is the faithful and wise servant. You believe that the Watchtower are the ones that Jehovah God is using to dispense "true food" and "true drink" in these "last days". Now this is very similar to the the Roman Catholic tradition that states that the Popes are the continuation of the Apostolic tradition, even though neither the Pope nor the Watchtower meet the qualifications of apostleship. You unquestioningly accept the Watchtowers' teachings, and your statements seem to indicate that you are not even allowed to question their teachings. Yet Even the Berean Christians were commended in that they examined Paul's teachings in light of the scriptures, to see if they were so. If it is commendable to examine the evidence to see if the apostles teachings are of Divine Origin, ( and they were clearly demonstrated to be so), why is it uncommendable to examine the Watchtowers teachings and track record to see if they are reliable? I can go back to the Old Testament and find confirmation for the entirety of the Apostles teaching. Can the same be said of the Watchtower? Can every one of their teachings down through the years be validated by the Word of God? Have all their prophecies come to pass as predicted. YHWH said that if a prophet speaks in His name, but what the prophet says does not come to pass, do not fear that prophet!

By the way, the Watchtower is not the pillar and ground of the truth according to 1 Timothy 3:15- "But if I tarry long , that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." Now, just who is the house of God? Jesus did not say that upon the Watchtower He would build His Church. He did not say whoever hears the words of the Watchtower and believes will be saved, He said whosoever hears my words. He did not say that the Watchtower would guide us into all truth, but that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth. He did not say that if any man lacks wisdom, let Him consult the Watchtower, He said if any man lack wisdom let him ask of God. John did not say, you have the Watchtower, therefore you know, he said you have an unction of the Holy One and you know. Jesus did not say whoever believes in the Watchtower will not perish, He said whoever believes on the only begotten Son will not perish but have eternal life.

It is better to put your trust in God, then to put it in men.

I am finished with this discussion. Thanks for the interesting conversation. You are in my prayers.

[Bandit]

Jesus answered that question at John 8:54-56, but in verse 57, the Jews asked a new question, wondering how he could of possibly have seen Abraham. Hence, Jesus said: "Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”(John 8:58) These were wanting to know how old he was, not who he was.

You are missing the point that who He claimed to be was the primary question to their inquery. You need to read this discussion as a whole, and not as distinct parts (as the Watchtower tells you to). When Jesus answered, He answered both the primary and secondary question with a single answer. Which is why the Jewish leaders wanted to stone Him. He told them who He was: the eternal God from beyond time.

[guestman]

I am not saying Jesus is two persons in one. I am saying that He was both Divine and human in one person. That was the point that Sojourner 55 was making as well.



So Jesus had two natures that were indivisible. That's precisely what I meant. We never said He had a divided nature.



Yes, and Arius' teachings were rejected as unbiblical, because he, like you, taught that Jesus was inferior to God, and a created being.



So doesnt the fact that He "emptied" Himself possibly explain some of the qualities He possessed (as a man) that you say prove He was not YHWH? In other words, since Jesus became like us in every way, as Hebrews 2:17 says, wouldnt that include the fact that He would submit Himself to the Father, be tempted of the devil, depend on the Holy Spirit, hunger, thirst, suffer, and even die. Was it possible for the LOGOS in His Pre-existence to be tempted? No, yet as the incarnate LOGOS who was made flesh and dwelt among us was tempted in every way that we are tempted, yet without sin. Was it possible for the Preexistent LOGOS to suffer and die? Not in His Pre-existent state, but He took upon Himself flesh and blood so that He could taste death for every man. So we see that your statements about Jesus' kenosis actually confirm my position that just because Jesus became like us in every way in His Incarnation does not necessarily mean that He was like us in His Pre-existent state. All of your arguments that Jesus is not YHWH because of self imposed limitations fall by the wayside on this very point.

If Jesus was killed on a torture stake, why did they use more than one nail ( se John 20:25). I know that the answer you give will in no way validate or invalidate your argument, but I am just asking out of curiousity.



Because it was necessary for Jesus to become like us in every way and walk the path that we must walk. Do we need to live in humble trust and submission to the Father? Yes, and so Jesus in order to be the Captain of our salvation became obedient to the Father and depended on the Holy Spirit just as it is necessary for us to do. Don't you understand that Jesus had to walk the very path that we walk so that we could follow in His Footsteps? ( 1 Peter 2:21) Come on now Guestman!!! Can you lay aside your presuppositions long enough to hear sound doctrine?



The text says He was raised to supreme majesty. Jesus had supreme majesty in His Pre-existent state, He humbled and emptied Himself in the Incarnation, then He was once again exalted to His Majestic and lofty position in the ascension when His earthly ministry was completed. What's so complicated about that? In humbling Himself and submitting Himself in obedience to the Father, He was Highly exalted. Now the exaltation was a return to His previous state as the Pre-existent LOGOS, but the marvelous truth that comes out of this is that the in the Christ act, ( ie the Incarnation, Christ's humility, submission, suffering, death, resurrection and subsequent exaltation, true believers were raised up to sit with Him in heavenly places. ( Colossians 3)

Now you believe that three days before his death, Jesus laid out an organized body of true worshipers that would provide "meat in due season" or real spiritual food from God, saying that the watchtower is is the faithful and wise servant. You believe that the Watchtower are the ones that Jehovah God is using to dispense "true food" and "true drink" in these "last days". Now this is very similar to the the Roman Catholic tradition that states that the Popes are the continuation of the Apostolic tradition, even though neither the Pope nor the Watchtower meet the qualifications of apostleship. You unquestioningly accept the Watchtowers' teachings, and your statements seem to indicate that you are not even allowed to question their teachings. Yet Even the Berean Christians were commended in that they examined Paul's teachings in light of the scriptures, to see if they were so. If it is commendable to examine the evidence to see if the apostles teachings are of Divine Origin, ( and they were clearly demonstrated to be so), why is it uncommendable to examine the Watchtowers teachings and track record to see if they are reliable? I can go back to the Old Testament and find confirmation for the entirety of the Apostles teaching. Can the same be said of the Watchtower? Can every one of their teachings down through the years be validated by the Word of God? Have all their prophecies come to pass as predicted. YHWH said that if a prophet speaks in His name, but what the prophet says does not come to pass, do not fear that prophet!

By the way, the Watchtower is not the pillar and ground of the truth according to 1 Timothy 3:15- "But if I tarry long , that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." Now, just who is the house of God? Jesus did not say that upon the Watchtower He would build His Church. He did not say whoever hears the words of the Watchtower and believes will be saved, He said whosoever hears my words. He did not say that the Watchtower would guide us into all truth, but that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth. He did not say that if any man lacks wisdom, let Him consult the Watchtower, He said if any man lack wisdom let him ask of God. John did not say, you have the Watchtower, therefore you know, he said you have an unction of the Holy One and you know. Jesus did not say whoever believes in the Watchtower will not perish, He said whoever believes on the only begotten Son will not perish but have eternal life.

It is better to put your trust in God, then to put it in men.

I am finished with this discussion. Thanks for the interesting conversation. You are in my prayers.

Enough has been said to have examined this in detail. Had Jesus been God, would Jesus have told the Jews: "If God were your Father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth" ?(John 8:42)

Some 65 years after his resurrection, if Jesus was God, would he have said: "The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine" ?(Rev 3:12)

Jesus affirmed that Jehovah was his God, and told the Samaritan woman at the well: "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:22-24)

Jesus worshiped Jehovah as all "true worshipers", and will always being his chief spokesman or "the Word".(John 1:1) As the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "In turn you belong to the Christ; the Christ, in turn, belongs to God."(1 Cor 3:23) If Jesus is God, could he "belong to God" ? The answer is very clear. You can continue this discussion with others besides me.

[glad4mercy]

Enough has been said to have examined this in detail. Had Jesus been God, would Jesus have told the Jews: "If God were your Father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth" ?(John 8:42)

Some 65 years after his resurrection, if Jesus was God, would he have said: "The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine" ?(Rev 3:12)

Jesus affirmed that Jehovah was his God, and told the Samaritan woman at the well: "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:22-24)

Jesus worshiped Jehovah as all "true worshipers", and will always being his chief spokesman or "the Word".(John 1:1) As the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "In turn you belong to the Christ; the Christ, in turn, belongs to God."(1 Cor 3:23) If Jesus is God, could he "belong to God" ? The answer is very clear. You can continue this discussion with others besides me.

OK Guestman. A closing scripture for you, if you happen to return to this thread.

1 John 4: 1- Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world

Have you thouroughly tested the Watchtowers teachings? I hope you have, because you are resting your eternal destiny on their teachings.

[guestman]

OK Guestman. A closing scripture for you, if you happen to return to this thread.

1 John 4: 1- Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world

Have you thouroughly tested the Watchtowers teachings? I hope you have, because you are resting your eternal destiny on their teachings.

You are the one who has closed your eyes and ears to the definitive Scriptural evidence that Jesus is not God. It is as Jesus said of the Jews, that "toward them the prophecy of Isaiah (Isa 6:9, 10) is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, you will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, you will look but by no means see. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it (Greek syniemi, meaning "to mentally put the pieces together") with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’(Matt 13:14, 15)

[MyRock]

Due to the Watchtower shining new light on previous doctrines/prophesies (now making them obsolete), how do you know that what you have been taught about the trinity is accurate when the organisation may tell you something else in a few years?

[MyRock]

20 “‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’ Deuteronomy 18:20 - 22


May I ask you. Have you been a Jehovah's witness for a long time? Are your family and friends all witnesses? If they are then it's no wonder you do not test the watchtowers integrity because if you do, you will run the risk of being shunned by those you love. I would probably not do it either to be honest if it meant I could not speak to/relate with and was isolated from family and friends. There is an emotional reason not to do it, but should I be that intellectually dishonest?

For example, there have been a number of times when blood transfusions went from not being allowed, to being allowed again to not being allowed. For those who were excommunicated for taking blood during the years it was banned, were they allowed back into fellowship when the rules changed to allow it?

Surely something worth excommunicating someone for cannot the next minute be ok and vice versa? You'd need to be pretty sure what they were doing was pretty and unequivocally bad before sanctioning all that emotional pain?

[glad4mercy]

You are the one who has closed your eyes and ears to the definitive Scriptural evidence that Jesus is not God. It is as Jesus said of the Jews, that "toward them the prophecy of Isaiah (Isa 6:9, 10) is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, you will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, you will look but by no means see. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it (Greek syniemi, meaning "to mentally put the pieces together") with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’(Matt 13:14, 15)

Guestman, do you agree with the teachings of Charles Taze Russell and J.F Rutherford? What did Russell and Rutherford and the early Jehovah's Witnesses teach about the 144,000. When was the number completed according to...

A. Charles Taze Russell

B. J.F Rutherford

C. The current Watchtower organization.

Guestman, are you one of the 144,000, or are you a member of the great multitude?

Guestman, is your heart truly at peace?

1. Do you know that you have eternal life?
2. Have you received the gift of the Holy Spirit?
3. Do you have full assurance that God has forgiven your sins?
4. Has God sent the Spirit of His Son into your heart, crying Abba Father?
5. Have you been set free from fear, and liberated into the blessed state of perfect love?
6. Have you reached the point where you know with certainty that you are under no condemnation due to the fact that you are in Christ?
7. If you have received these blessings, on what basis did you receive them? How did you come to possess these blessings?

All of these wondrous blessings are given freely through faith in Christ in alone. No organization can give you these things. Obedience to a strict set of rules cannot give you these things. Do you have that Blessed Assurance, Guestman?

You say that I will not turn to God so that I can be healed. I will tell you that God has miraculously healed me of addiction to just about every type of sin known to man. How was I healed? By placing my faith in Christ and calling on His Name. My church didnt save me, my pastor didnt save me, a system of belief did not save me, Jesus Christ saved me. Some people come to Christ knowing nothing except that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead, and that He will save them if they come to Him, and He has miraculously saved them. Salvation is of the LORD.

You seem to think that there is no salvation outside of the Jehovah Witness organization. Why would you put God in a box like that? Jesus says " for God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting Life.

Guess what, Guestmann? I'm a Whosoever!

[glad4mercy]

20 “‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’ Deuteronomy 18:20 - 22


May I ask you. Have you been a Jehovah's witness for a long time? Are your family and friends all witnesses? If they are then it's no wonder you do not test the watchtowers integrity because if you do, you will run the risk of being shunned by those you love. I would probably not do it either to be honest if it meant I could not speak to/relate with and was isolated from family and friends. There is an emotional reason not to do it, but should I be that intellectually dishonest?

For example, there have been a number of times when blood transfusions went from not being allowed, to being allowed again to not being allowed. For those who were excommunicated for taking blood during the years it was banned, were they allowed back into fellowship when the rules changed to allow it?

Surely something worth excommunicating someone for cannot the next minute be ok and vice versa? You'd need to be pretty sure what they were doing was pretty and unequivocally bad before sanctioning all that emotional pain?

Great post! In Malachi, YHWH says " I am the LORD, I do not change!" If our Theology changes it is not God who changes, it is us. Either we were wrong and corrected ourselves, or we were right and departed from the truth, or we were wrong and changed our opinion to a different wrong opinion. God's Word does not change, so if the Watchtower were infallible, their words would not change either.

By the way, just as God said I do not change, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Yet another one of the Attributes of perfection that He shares with the Father, that no created being could possibly possess.

[Sojourner55]

Guestman,
Do you intend to respond to post #41? You seem to have forgotten to do so. I took the time to thoughtfully respond to your points, and would appreciate your addressing the points I made, since arriving at the truth about Jesus' deity is such a critical point in this thread.

[MyRock]

I have a quote below from The Watchtower magazine dated August 15th 1981.

"From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude...They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago...

Doesn't this tell you guestman that if you read the bible without the Watchtower literature you will come to the conclusion that Jesus is God, hell exists and the trinity? These are all apostate teachings are they not?

[guestman]

Yep, Jesus said He was the Son of God, alright. But let's frame your quote in the proper context (I'll be using the same ESV translation you are using throughout this response):

30 "I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

You choose to ignore the fact that this passage ties together: 1. Jesus being one with the Father, 2. Jesus being the Son of God, and 3. the perception of the Jews that Jesus was "making Himself God." Barring a lack of intellectual honesty, one will admit that this passage irrefutably portrays the Jews seeking to stone Jesus for calling Himself the Son of God--which they understood as making Himself equal to God. That is why they took up the stones, is it not? And do you see any denials by Jesus, when accused of being equal to God? If so, please point it out.


Again, being the Son of God in no way detracts from Jesus being God incarnate. That is a personal doctrine you cannot substantiate with the Scriptures. (With the New World Translation, maybe, but that is the word of man, not the inspired word of God).


So then, Jesus saying He is the Son of God is the reason the Jews sought to stone Him for blasphemy? That seems strange, since the Jews called also themselves sons of God (John 8:41).


Though you have repeatedly refused to address the truths revealed in passages such as Philippians 2:5-10, Scripture makes it clear that Jesus voluntarily divested Himself of His divine prerogatives until He accomplished that for which He was sent:

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant,b being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

As this passage clearly states, Jesus was in the form of God, and willingly laid aside His deity, and everything He possessed prior to the incarnation. Only as a man, was Jesus given anything. As the eternal Word of God, He simply reclaimed what belonged to Him. Jesus even chose the moment of His own death, for Pete's sake: He "gave up the spirit," when all things were fully accomplished (John 19:30). Jesus even stated the voluntary and temporary nature of His impending death:

The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. (John 10:18)

Jesus stated in fact, that He Himself would raise His body from the dead:
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (John 2:19) Wouldn't you have to be God to make a statement like that?


If you would only look at Jesus through the lenses of the clear Biblical truth of His having two natures, you would have a tremendously different perspective. You are trying to twist Scripture to fit your doctrine, instead of twisting your doctrine to fit the Scriptures, which is the very reason you have such a skewed perception of Jesus.


Again, still using your version of the Bible, Peter called Jesus God:
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Pet 1:1)


There is an abundance of passages that declare Jesus' deity in the Scriptures, many of which have been presented to you. But you simply refuse to accept them for what they say. Indeed, We are told that Jesus is the flesh and blood embodiment of the fullness of God's being:
For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. (Col 2:9)

Jesus Himself spoke of the deity He possessed before being robed in humanity:
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.(John 17:5)

Indeed, Jesus said that to see Him, was to see God:
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? (John 14:8-9)


You are rejecting the dual nature of Jesus, which is the key that will unlock the proper understanding of His nature and relationship to God. Jesus is clearly seen as both God and man throughout the Scriptures. A few examples are:

As a man, Jesus hungered (Luke 4:2) As God, He called Himself the bread of life (John 6:48)
As a man, Jesus thirsted (John 19:28) as God He said said that those who drank of the water He would provide will never thirst again (John 4:14).
As a man, Jesus died upon a cross, and was buried. As God, He said, "I am the resurrection and the life."

At John 10:33, it does not say: "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God", but "we are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.”

The Greek definite article ho is not before the Greek word theon (god) at the end of John 10:33, combined with the fact that Jesus quoted from Psalms 82 regarding the judges of Israel being considered as "gods".(Ps 82:1-3) Thus, the Jews were pointing to Jesus as implying he is "a god", not "the God", by Jesus telling them: "I am God's Son."(John 10:36)

Being God's Son does put a stop to Jesus being "God incarnate". The Son is not equal to the Father, for Jesus said just hours before his death: "The Father is greater than I am."(John 14:28) The apostle John wrote of Jesus: "Now, because he knew before the festival of the passover that his hour had come for him to move out of this world to the Father.....knowing that the Father had given all things into [his] hands and that he came forth from God and was going to God."(John 13:1, 3) This is an unambiguous statement of who Jesus is, that he "came forth from God and was going to God ", being "given all things" by God.

That Jesus worshiped the Father, Jehovah God, is clear at John 4:22, 23, in which he said to the Samaritan woman: "we worship what we know....the hour is coming, and it is now, when true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth." How could be God and yet "worship the Father " ?

At Daniel 7:9,13, Daniel says that "there were thrones placed and the Ancient of Days sat down....I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and the see there ! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One."

Who is the "son of man" that was brought before the Ancient of Days ? And who is the Ancient of Days here ? Jesus often called himself "the Son of man"(Matt 8:20), and said that he is "the beginning of the creation of God". He thus recognized that he had a beginning. However, of his Father, he also recognized that his Father is "from everlasting to everlasting".(Ps 90:2) How could Jesus be God and have a "beginning" ?

In addition, how could Jesus be God and yet go before God, and be "given rulership and dignity and kingdom" ?(Dan 7:14) Romans 1:20 says that God has "eternal power". Hence, how could Jesus be given something that he is supposed to already have - "eternal power" ? How could he be "the Christ of God" if he is God ?(Matt 16:16) To see Jesus as God goes completely contrary to the Bible.

You obviously have failed in your eyesight, for just because Jesus said to the Jews: "Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" at John 2:19 does not mean that Jesus is God.

Have you not read what Peter told the Jews on the day of Pentecost: "Therefore, because he (David) was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one from the fruitage of his loins upon his throne, he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Ha´des nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which you see and hear."(Acts 2:30-33) Can Jesus be God and yet "be exalted to the right hand of God " ? No.

Later, Peter again told the Jews: "The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom you, for your part, delivered up and disowned before Pilate’s face, when he had decided to release him. Yes, you disowned that holy and righteous one, and you asked for a man, a murderer, to be freely granted to you, whereas you killed the Chief Agent of life. But God raised him up from the dead."(Acts 3:13-15)

There is no need to further this seemingly endless discussion that leads to nowhere, like a dead end street.

[Sojourner55]

You're right guestman. Any further dialogue with you is pointless. You twist the meaning of Scripture to fit your doctrine, instead of twisting your doctrine to fit the Scriptures, and you have continued to turn a blind eye to some of the clearest proofs in the Bible that speak of the deity of Jesus. But I suppose that's to be expected from someone brainwashed by a pseudo-Christian cult like the Jehovah's Witnesses. It's just too bad its history of false prophecy, abrogation of doctrine, and its need for a customized Bible translation that supports its false teachings, isn't a bright, red flag for you.

[glad4mercy]

At John 10:33, it does not say: "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God", but "we are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.”

The Greek definite article ho is not before the Greek word theon (god) at the end of John 10:33,

So you say that because the Greek definite article does not appear before God in John 10:33 it should be translated "a god"? Is this true of the following passages that also do not contain the definite article in Greek either? Are they referring to "a god" as well?

John 1:6- There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης

John 1:12- But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα θεοῦ γενέσθαι τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ

John 1:13- Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
οἳ οὐκ ἐξ αἱμάτων οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος ἀνδρὸς ἀλλ᾽ ἐκ θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν

John 1:18- No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός, ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο

Is there a definite article before the word "theon" or "theou" in these passages?

How does the NWT translate these passages? Did its translators follow a different rule for John 1:1 and John 10: 33 then they did for the scriptures above.

That's just from the first chapter of John alone!

[MyRock]

All the replies you have given are what the watchtower tells you. Have you given thought as to the validity of their teachings? How can you trust a prophet that has continually made mistakes? God doesn't lie. And I can't believe that He would allow His chosen instrument to teach differing things. He would run the risk of putting his trustworthyness at risk surely?