Is the book of Revelation Chronological

[glad4mercy]

Sure. Atleast in part. Enduring in works, and in trials must also have their part.
If it sounds like I'm being picky, isn't this exactly where most pseudo-Christians fall down? "Oh, I believe in Jesus", and that's as far as it goes. They think that saying that gives them a free pass into heaven. But is that even faith? (Rom 5:3-5).

Not according to James! Actually you answered your own objection when you asked the question "is that even faith?" A mere intellectual assent and verbal profession is not faith. When I say we must endure in the faith, I mean the Biblical definition of living faith. If we have living faith, we will obey and if we remain in living faith we will endure. We are not saved by faith and works, we are saved by faith that works. Faith without works is dead, works without faith are filthy rags in Gods sight.

An interesting point to consider. Certainly, the sacrifices at the temple ceased. And, no doubt, many other features, which I could not think of, as well. Nevertheless, the law was still in place. The seventy years of desolation was given in accord with law regarding the sabbaths of the land. And, the restoration was fully and repeatedly prophesied, showing that the system itself had not yet come to its conclusion.

I agree with what you wrote here. I do respectfully disagree with you on the point that God has cast away the nation of Israel forever. Can we can agree to disagree on this point?

It does, yes. But the mediator between men and God allows for a fundamental shift. Spiritual Israel could never be realized prior to this. That is why the outpouring of spirit at Pentecost 33CE was such a significant event (Acts 2:1-4). This took place just 10 days after Christ's sacrifice was presented.

Do you mean ten days after Christ's sacrifice was presented in Heaven? For the day of Pentecost was 10 days after the ascension. Are you speaking of Christ entering into the Holy Place in heaven?

"And yet all these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise." Heb 11:39
Why not?

I suppose because Christ had not yet come and fullfilled His work of Redemption, ( death, burial, resurrection, ascension, High priesthood). Yet they were justified by their faith in what christ would do, just as we are justified by faith in what Christ has already done. I believe that justification has always been by faith.

So, are we any closer to answering the question of the sacred secret?

The mystery of God is the fullfillment of the promises made by God to His servants the prophets. There are many aspects to this mystery. Are we in agreement on this?

[TalonKarrde_X]

Not according to James! Actually you answered your own objection when you asked the question "is that even faith?" A mere intellectual assent and verbal profession is not faith. When I say we must endure in the faith, I mean the Biblical definition of living faith. If we have living faith, we will obey and if we remain in living faith we will endure. We are not saved by faith and works, we are saved by faith that works. Faith without works is dead, works without faith are filthy rags in Gods sight.

Now, that I agree with.

I agree with what you wrote here. I do respectfully disagree with you on the point that God has cast away the nation of Israel forever. Can we can agree to disagree on this point?

Yup.

Do you mean ten days after Christ's sacrifice was presented in Heaven? For the day of Pentecost was 10 days after the ascension. Are you speaking of Christ entering into the Holy Place in heaven?

Ya.

I suppose because Christ had not yet come and fulfilled His work of Redemption, ( death, burial, resurrection, ascension, High priesthood). Yet they were justified by their faith in what Christ would do, just as we are justified by faith in what Christ has already done. I believe that justification has always been by faith.

Yes, I agree with that.

The mystery of God is the fulfillment of the promises made by God to His servants the prophets. There are many aspects to this mystery. Are we in agreement on this?

Maybe. But I only say maybe because of my own ignorance. And maybe I'll give it some thought...

[glad4mercy]

Now, that I agree with.


Yup.




Ya.




Yes, I agree with that.




Maybe. But I only say maybe because of my own ignorance. And maybe I'll give it some thought...

Part of being teachable before God is realizing we don't have all the answers yet. That is why I said that my view on eschatology is stlll open and not fully settled. I am still being instructed on these things by the Word of God, and I expect to be until the day I die. Good discussion. Thanks for your insight, as my own insight was sharpened by yours. God bless. I hope we have more discussions in the future.

[John146]

That is your opinion.

"And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" - Rev 6:15-17

How did they know the Lords wrath has come? Because it was already storming out... They realized the wrath of the Lamb was here.



Yup. If I knew the storm was going to get worse.



"had occurred". No it is still storming out... and the storm will get worse.



Because the storm is going to get worse.

There's something I think you have not taken into consideration here. The following passage indicates that people would not be aware of the coming of His wrath until the day of His coming so why would you think that people would realize the wrath of the Lamb had come and it was going to get worse even before the day of His return?

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus clearly taught that people would be unaware of their impending doom all the way until the day of His second coming just as people were unaware (or at least didn't believe it would happen even if Noah tried to make them aware) that they were about to be destroyed by the flood "until the flood came, and took them all away". How does that fit your understanding of the seals in Revelation and the sixth seal in particular? It seems to me that in order to reconcile what it says in Rev 6:12-17 with what Jesus said in Matt 24:37-39 we would have to conclude that "the great day of His wrath" is particularly speaking of the wrath that will come down on the day of His return. You are mistaken in seeing "the great day of His wrath" as an ongoing period of time that gets worse. No, "the great day of His wrath" is the day of His return and He compared the wrath that He will pour out on that day with the flood coming upon the people of the world in Noah's day. Again, they were not aware and/or did not believe that the flood was coming until the day it came. So, if you are concluding that "the great day of His wrath" begins before the day of His coming then you are not understanding what Jesus taught in Matt 24:37-39.

[vinsight4u8]

Try to lay out Rev. 11:15 where the kingdoms becomes His, and then later Rev. 12 where His kingdom is yet to come as being in chronological order. You can't.

Look at how the ark is seen by John near the end of Rev. 11 -which would show it is time for mercy on Israel - then bring the devil down on her in Rev. 12 and the beast in Rev. 13. Also, look at how John refers to the temple in Rev. 15:5 and in Rev. 11:19. Which time of opening the temple in heaven do you think he actually saw first?

parts to consider>
from 11:19 "the temple of God"
from 15:5 "the temple of the tabernacle"
/In Rev. 15, John has not yet viewed at any time that area where the Rev. 11 ark could be seen.

Rev. 15 - temple - but the ark section still closed to his eyes
Rev. 11 - John sees the ark.
The temple now becomes the temple of God.
no longer - the one of can't yet see inside of the tabernacle part

When did the temple become shown to John as His temple?
Look at the end of Rev. 15.
Notice that John saw plagues fulfilled then.

[vinsight4u8]

Jesus Christ will appear for the taking home of the saints and the freeing of Jerusalem in the 6th seal.

Malachi 3:2
But who shall abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth?...

/6th seal hiders =
the kings of the earth
the great men
the rich men
the chief captains
the mighty men
every bondman
every freeman
"hid"

The church must leave at this point, as she will not be hiding from the face of God.

Rev. 7 begins a new vision to John.
It is not part of the sealed book that the Lamb opens.
In between the close of the 6th seal and the opening of the 7th seal, John was shown visions.

[vinsight4u8]

After the 7th seal John sees a set of angels he has viewed earlier.

"the seven angels"

What did they do earlier when John saw them?

they stood
and were given trumpets

Why did John tell us the trumpet events in Rev. 8?
Because he is telling you what angels showed up, and he has to mx up parts of what he saw and heard.

How long did the trumpet time last?
Look at what happens in the plague list that goes out just a bit ahead of the trumpets start to sound information is told to us.
It shows the last plague that will come for this set of plagues will be an earthquake.

Later, the vials will come and end with great hail.

[vinsight4u8]

John did not see any vials in Rev. 15:1.

[vinsight4u8]

Please add this to your thoughts about Revelation.

At the end part of the book, John is not to seal that book's sayings, so how could the trumpet plagues be included in that particular book since they have the seven thunders words sealed?


trumpets begin ----Rev. 10- seal the seven thunders part
John eats a little book
trumpet 7 is yet to come

Rev. 22 - messages all come from one book
John can't seal any of these messages.
Where are these messages from?
They came to him because he ate the little open book.

[glad4mercy]

The church must leave at this point, as she will not be hiding from the face of God.

That is an interesting point.

[vinsight4u8]

I voted, "No, the visions in Revelation are a series of parallel visions" but would like to add they are not exactly parallel. I believe that each block of seven is a more detailed description of the 'seventh' event of the previous block of seven.

The 7th seal brngs the already seen before trumpet angels on the scene.

The mystery of God ends with the 7th trumpet. The vials are not part of that mystery.
The end of Rev. 15 refers to how seven plagues are fulfilled.
That means seven are over before John ever saw the events of the vials in chapter 16.
Rev. 18 and 21 reveal that the vials will be poured out twice.
So -there will be 14 plagues coming full measure that get poured out.

7 trumpet plagues -come in less than full strength portions
14 vial plagues - come full strength - full cups

[vinsight4u8]

The mystery of God finishes at the 7th trumpet.
The third woe finishes the time of the 7th trumpet. Look back in Rev. 8 as to what John put just ahead of the angels prepared to sound.

What do you see?
a plague list

The final plague of the trumpet time will be an earrthquake.

Okay, now look at the final verse in Rev. 11.
What do you see?
This set of plagues will be finished. God will not have any of their parts sealed up.

[Eyelog]

There's something I think you have not taken into consideration here. The following passage indicates that people would not be aware of the coming of His wrath until the day of His coming so why would you think that people would realize the wrath of the Lamb had come and it was going to get worse even before the day of His return?

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus clearly taught that people would be unaware of their impending doom all the way until the day of His second coming just as people were unaware (or at least didn't believe it would happen even if Noah tried to make them aware) that they were about to be destroyed by the flood "until the flood came, and took them all away". How does that fit your understanding of the seals in Revelation and the sixth seal in particular? It seems to me that in order to reconcile what it says in Rev 6:12-17 with what Jesus said in Matt 24:37-39 we would have to conclude that "the great day of His wrath" is particularly speaking of the wrath that will come down on the day of His return. You are mistaken in seeing "the great day of His wrath" as an ongoing period of time that gets worse. No, "the great day of His wrath" is the day of His return and He compared the wrath that He will pour out on that day with the flood coming upon the people of the world in Noah's day. Again, they were not aware and/or did not believe that the flood was coming until the day it came. So, if you are concluding that "the great day of His wrath" begins before the day of His coming then you are not understanding what Jesus taught in Matt 24:37-39.

I tend to conur.

[vinsight4u8]

Look for where the vials first are seen in Revelation.

So the seven plagues of Rev. 15:1 are not the plagues in those.

[vinsight4u8]

That is an interesting point.

When we see Him is when we will be like Him.

Rev. 7:1 begins to tell us about a vision that did not come from the sealed book that the Lamb had been opening. It takes us back to reveal some events that happen before the 6th seal.

Rev. 7:1
And after...

~ Look at how many angels are seen in verse 1, and where they are located.
They are on the earth.
But before the chapter ends all angels are in heaven

Rev. 7:1 would require four angels to stay put or trouble begins.
Rev. 7:2 refers to a new angel - as another - ascending from the east.

So far no angels were seen to ascend from the east, they were just standing on the earth.
This means John has given us a clue that this is a pick-up from another part of Revelation, and we need to go find out what verses link us from the vision of Rev. 7:1 to the start of 7:2.