Partial Rapture: Watch therefore, praying always that you may be counted worthy

[songofdegrees]

But keeping someone from something can occur while protecting them while they go through it. Keeping someone from something does not necessarily require removing them completely from it. A firefighter can keep someone from dying in a fire by spraying water on the fire to keep it from harming them and putting a blanket around them to protect them even while they are still in the building while the fire is burning.

Since there are Christian martyrs during the Tribulation then God can't promise you won't be martyred during the Tribulation even if you are most spiritual Christian, so that is not a keeping from the hour of trial. The only way God can keep this promise to be kept from or out of is by being raptured before the 7 year Tribulation starts. [mod edit: no dating]

You say "ek" has to mean "out of" in Rev 3:10, but I disagree. The Greek phrase "tereo ek", which is translated as "keep...from" in Rev 3:10 is also used here:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

"ek" in the lexicon is "out of, from, by, away from." John 17.15 is a different context. It is not promising no death, just to be kept from evil so the Christian does no evil and is not deceived by evil. A Christiana could still be killed at the handsd of evil Rev. 17. Whereas Rev. 3.10 is promising to literally be kept from the hour of the Tribulation itself based on a condition. This is a conditional statement. It's a promise IF YOU keep the word of His patience you will escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world.

Jesus was not praying that they would be taken out of the world and kept out of the evil world. He was praying that they would be protected from evil while still in the world. That is how the phrase should be understood in Rev 3:10 as well. In that verse Jesus was telling them that because they had "kept the word of my patience" He would protect them from or through "the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world". Jesus doesn't need to remove us from the world in order to protect us from trials and tribulations. In no way, shape or form can Rev 3:10 be used as support for a pre-trib rapture because it has nothing to do with anyone being taken off of the earth.

Not all Christian "keep the word of His patience" so not all Christian will be kept from the hour of trial. But a spiritual Christian who keeps the word of His patience could yet be martyred during the Tribulation so the latter would not be kept from if he is martyred. Death is no blessing. The only way God can make this promise to be kept from is by being raptured. Whereas John 17 it is a being kept from evil and from doing evil. Even though this is God's wish, a Christian can still be martyred, that's why no promise was made to be kept from the hour of trial in John 17. Jesus doesn't need to remove you from the world in order to protect from trials and tribulations in Rev. 17, because there are many martyred Christians throughout the centuries. Whereas being kept from the hour of trial in Rev. 3.10 is a reward to overcomer believers who fulfill the condition by being watchful, prayerful (Luke 21.36) and keeping the word of His patience.

You've tried to mingle two unrelated texts just because they have the word "from" (a preposition) in them. Stick with the context.

[songofdegrees]

For believers death is a blessing.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Phil 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Jesus doesn't want you to be murdered. How evil of you to suggest that is a blessing. Murder is wrong.

Rev. 14.13 is referring to Christians who have passed on already. Phil. 1.22 is not talking about the murder of Christians, but that it is better to be resurrected with the Lord and ascended.

"But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don't know which is better" (Phil. 1.22).

That KJV old English is really outdated by the way.

[John146]

Since there are Christian martyrs during the Tribulation then God can't promise you won't be martyred during the Tribulation even if you are most spiritual Christian, so that is not a keeping from the hour of trial. The only way God can keep this promise to be kept from or out of is by being raptured before the 7 year Tribulation starts. [mod edit: no dating]

You are assuming that it has to do with being kept from being physically killed but that is not necessarily the case. It could instead have to do with Him protecting them spiritually and keeping them from being deceived. But even if it had to do with being physically killed, Jesus would not necessarily have to take anyone off of the earth in order to avoid tribulation. God has protected people from tribulation while they were still on the earth in the past many times.

"ek" in the lexicon is "out of, from, by, away from." John 17.15 is a different context.

How convenient of you to conclude that the way the phrase is used in John 17:15 has a different context.

It is not promising no death, just to be kept from evil so the Christian does no evil and is not deceived by evil.

Why can't Rev 3:10 be understood in that context? How exactly are you concluding that what Jesus was promising in Rev 3:10 is to keep them from being physically killed?

A Christiana could still be killed at the handsd of evil Rev. 17. Whereas Rev. 3.10 is promising to literally be kept from the hour of the Tribulation itself based on a condition. This is a conditional statement. It's a promise IF YOU keep the word of His patience you will escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world.

That's your interpretation, but I completely disagree. Also, you should notice that Jesus is speaking there to an actual church that existed in the first century in the province of Asia so how could He have been speaking to them about a pre-trib rapture when obviously no pre-trib rapture occurred in their lifetimes? Jesus clearly implied that "the hour of temptation" He was referring to would occur during their lifetimes, so I don't find it reasonable to conclude that He was speaking of something that would not even occur during their lifetimes.

Not all Christian "keep the word of His patience" so not all Christian will be kept from the hour of trial. But a spiritual Christian who keeps the word of His patience could yet be martyred during the Tribulation so the latter would not be kept from if he is martyred. Death is no blessing.

Here you are saying again that "Death is no blessing" despite the fact that I already showed you otherwise. You are contradicting passages like these:

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Phil 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

The only way God can make this promise to be kept from is by being raptured.

That is a completely baseless opinion.

Whereas John 17 it is a being kept from evil and from doing evil.

That is what Rev 3:10 is about as well.

Even though this is God's wish, a Christian can still be martyred, that's why no promise was made to be kept from the hour of trial in John 17. Jesus doesn't need to remove you from the world in order to protect from trials and tribulations in Rev. 17, because there are many martyred Christians throughout the centuries. Whereas being kept from the hour of trial in Rev. 3.10 is a reward to overcomer believers who fulfill the condition by being watchful, prayerful (Luke 21.36) and keeping the word of His patience.

You've tried to mingle two unrelated texts just because they have the word "from" (a preposition) in them. Stick with the context.

I am sticking with the context. You have done nothing to support your claim that what Jesus was talking about in Rev 3:10 was being taken off of the earth to avoid being physically killed.

[John146]

Jesus doesn't want you to be murdered.

It wouldn't bother Him if I was martyred because I could then be with Him in heaven.

How evil of you to suggest that is a blessing.

It's not evil at all to be martyred. It's an evil act by the one committing the murder but it's not evil to be murdered. It can be a blessing in a way because it allows you to go to be with the Lord in heaven. That's what I'm saying in case you didn't get that before. Paul indicated that being dead and going to be with the Lord is far better than remaining here. It's too bad that you apparently don't share Paul's mindset.

Murder is wrong.

No kidding. I'm not saying committing murder is good, I'm saying that being murdered because of your faith in Christ is not necessarily a bad thing for a Christian and can be a good thing in the sense of being able to no longer have to suffer and to be with Christ.

Rev. 14.13 is referring to Christians who have passed on already.

No, it isn't. It's saying those who would die from that point on would be blessed because they could then "rest from their labors" that they went through while alive on the earth.

Phil. 1.22 is not talking about the murder of Christians, but that it is better to be resurrected with the Lord and ascended.

It's talking about the fact that it's better to be dead and with the Lord than still alive here on earth. So, in that sense being martyred is a blessing because it allows you to go be with the Lord, which is far better than being here, as Paul said.

"But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don't know which is better" (Phil. 1.22).

Which translation is that from? I just now read several different translations and none of them are translated like that and they all are translated similarly to the KJV. Even the Darby translation reads similarly to the KJV and Darby is the one who popularized the false pre-trib rapture theory. Also, you should try using a little common sense. How can being right there with Christ in heaven without any suffering not be considered better than being here where we suffer every day? Paul was torn between 1) wanting to die and depart his body and be with Christ in heaven, which was far better for him (but worse for the Philippian saints), and 2) remaining alive for the sake of the "saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi", which was better for them (but worse for him). It shows how unselfish he was that he was torn between those two things despite one of those things being far better for him.

That KJV old English is really outdated by the way.

I don't need you to tell me what is outdated. I will quote from whichever translation I wish. I'd much rather quote from an accurate translation using old English than an inaccurate translation using modern English.

[songofdegrees]

You are assuming that it has to do with being kept from being physically killed but that is not necessarily the case.

From the "hour of trial" itself at the end of this age, not just general trials and tribulations.

[songofdegrees]

Jesus would not necessarily have to take anyone off of the earth in order to avoid tribulation. God has protected people from tribulation while they were still on the earth in the past many times.

There are martyrs during the Great Tribulation, so God can't promise you won't be martyred as there have been many martyrs throughout the centuries. But Rev. 3.10 is different promising to not be killed. The only way this promise can be kept is by being raptured before the 7 year Tribulatin starts.

[songofdegrees]

He was referring to would occur during their lifetimes

The message to the 7 church was during their day because that was the condition of their churches, but these seven churches depict precisely the 7 church periods also, the last 4 still remain with us now. Just as Revelation 6 is the past 20 centuries so are the 7 church periods in Rev. 2 & 3.

[songofdegrees]

it's not evil to be murdered

How evil of you to say. You are free to murder now because it is not evil to murder according to you.[mod edit]

[songofdegrees]

It's saying those who would die from that point on would be blessed

This verse isn't saying they are blessed for being murdered. Everyone who has died in Christ is blessed because they are in Christ and can rest from their labors. Likewise is true of those who die in the Tribulation.

[songofdegrees]

It's talking about the fact that it's better to be dead and with the Lord than still alive here on earth.

It's not talking about it is good to be murdered. Murder is wrong. [mod edit]

[songofdegrees]

I don't need you to tell me what is outdated.

Maybe you do. Betwixt is not a common word today.

[songofdegrees]

"Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10).

This affects everyone on the earth, both Christian and non-Christians alike.

Do all Christians keep the word of His patience? Of course not. So non-overcomers will enter the hour of trial of the Tribulation itself.

Can God promise a person won't be martyred during the Tribulation? Of course not. Many Christians will be martyred during the Tribulation. A person martyred was not kept from the hour of trial.

Those who overcometh they get to escape that period. "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36).

Speaking to Christians whose Lord is theirs, "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Matt. 24.40,42).

If you are watchful you will be first raptured. Non-ovecomer Christians will pass through the Tribulation to be raptured at the last trumpet instead.

[quiet dove]

How evil of you to say. You are free to murder now because it is not evil to murder according to you. You're a bad guy.

You need to re-read that...he didn't say it was not evil to murder...he said it was not evil to be murdered

You need to back up a little bit and not make the discussions personal

[songofdegrees]

You need to re-read that...he didn't say it was not evil to murder...he said it was not evil to be murdered

You need to back up a little bit and not make the discussions personal

That's evil to say it is not evil to be murdered. Murder is wrong no matter how you slice it. It is not a blessing. Hence, Rev. 3.10 stands to be interpreted only way that only Christians who keep the word of His patience shall be "taken" (Matt. 24.40) and not "left" (v.41). The rest of Christians alive at the first rapture will enter the Tribulation.

God promises to escape the hour of trial (Luke 21.36) for Christians who are watchful and prayerful. Since being murdered is no blessing and just plain wrong and there will be martyrs in the Tribulation then the only way God can promise not to enter the hour of trial and not be martyred is by being raptured alive. God doesn't promise a Christian won't be martyred if they enter the Tribulation, like was so in previous centuries.

[songofdegrees]

Albert Einstein said if you can't explain something simply enough you don't understand it well enough.

Very simply, a Christian does not escape the hour of trial that is to come upon this whole world at the end of this age by being martyred.