NEW UPDATED POLL: When is the rapture?

[Diggindeeper]

Yes I absolutely believe 1 Ths 4:17, I just do not believe that those in that resurrection are wafted off to heaven in some 'secret event' that leaves trains, planes and automobiles driverless and children fatherless.

This is how I see it too....I can find NO secret rapture in scripture. But I do believe we will be AT THE LAST TRUMP, the harvest taken, but this is at his one (and only) second coming.

[seeker_truth]

Revelation 11:8
"And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Once again, where does it say that the whole world sees their dead bodies.

[thedee]

Once again, where does it say that the whole world sees their dead bodies.

Rev 11:9-10.................

[seeker_truth]

Rev 11:9-10.................

Rev.11:9 "They of the people (citizens) and kindreds (tribes of Jacob) and tongues (who speak different languages) and nations (from all over the world)" refers to the diverse inhabitants of Jerusalem, who have the actual ability to keep anyone from burying the bodies of the two witnesses..."and they shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

[Withoutfcf]

i answered i don't believe..Because i wanted to...

[vinsight4u8]

Rev 11:9-10.................

KJV
Rev. 11:9
And they of the people, and kindreds, and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days an an half...

[vinsight4u8]

same hour

The two witnesses do not rise at the same hour - same section of time given in Rev. 11 where the wicked of the world are sending gifits to each other. If they did then the prophecy message (being spoken by an angel) would have not had the part as "same hour". When we see "same hour", it means make a division in the times being spoken of, because the one event won't happen until the same hour event occurs.

KJV

Da 3:5 That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of music, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
Da 3:6 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.

/That at what time ye hear...music...worship the golden image...
/shall the same hour be cast

So till the music played, and someoone didn't worship the image- the same hour part was on hold.

They had come to the dedication of the golden image, even all the rulers of the provinces, so that could invlove quite a bit of time.
Then came the time when they stood before the image.
Yet, all of the cast into the fire at the same hour as the music played was still an on hold hour.

This is just like in Rev. 11, we are supposed to realize that the angel had told John aout more than one kind of hour that will come. He had told him about the one that ends with the gift-givers and 3.5 days. He also told him about the earthquake hour. That eartquake hour would be the same hour as when the two witnesses rise. Only those sections of time belong together.

giving of gifts by the wicked
------------------
earthqauke
the same hour

So John knew that it would take that earthquake hour section, whenever it is -to be in the time when the two witnesses rise.

When the angel refers to "the" third woe, then we know it is the earthquake of the 7th trumpet plague.
/the same hour as the 7th trumpet

It is when the time of the judging of the dead - reward the saints /has come.

We saw the second woe had plagues that men did not repent at the end of in Rev. 9; yet they give God the glory when the earthquake hour/woe comes.

Rev. 8 shows how the trumpet time will end.

8:5
...thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

/We are shown that the last plague of the trumpet set will be an earthquake.

Just as Rev. 11:19b shows that an earthquake and great hail will come at the end of the set of vials.

11:19b
...thunderings...an earthquake, and great hail.
/After this should be seen a time of the seven angels and we get to----

Rev. 16:7
...the seventh angel poured out his vial..
Rev. 16:18...earthquake...

[Youssarian]

I honestly don't know what to believe concerning the Rapture. I have observed many that believe it is pre-Trib, many who believe it is post-Trib, and just a few that say mid-Trib. Even though I attend a pre-Trib church, I am not sure it's correct. This is something I will eventually have to figure out for myself. It's just a matter of finding all the Scriptures concerning the end times/Rapture/Second Coming/etc.

[Diggindeeper]

I honestly don't know what to believe concerning the Rapture. I have observed many that believe it is pre-Trib, many who believe it is post-Trib, and just a few that say mid-Trib. Even though I attend a pre-Trib church, I am not sure it's correct. This is something I will eventually have to figure out for myself. It's just a matter of finding all the Scriptures concerning the end times/Rapture/Second Coming/etc.

That's exactly right, friend! Its all there, in the Word. I too attend a pre-trib church, but my husband and I HAVE talked to our Pastor about this, using scripture. But I have a Pastor who really, really studies. I am confident he WILL one day admit that he really does not believe what the denomination says they are to believe. He even told us there are several who go there who agree with us! (But we didn't ask, and will only know if they say something to us. THAT is where God has us, and we are not there to stir up trouble.) By the way, he hardly, hardly ever talks about eschatology, one way or the other! Just stays quiet about that, but is strong on preaching that we have rough time headed our way soon.

Why not start with some simple to understand chapters? Like these:

Matthew 24
Mark 13
Luke 21
Luke 17
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

I say this because I feel strongly that whatever we believe, it must line up with the direct words of Christ Jesus himself first and foremost. We can't defend a 'doctrine' of a church if it goes in opposition to what HE said. Can we?

[John 8:32]

Once again, where does it say that the whole world sees their dead bodies.

Uhh, maybe here...

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

[JerryShugart]

Why not start with some simple to understand chapters? Like these:

Matthew 24

“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be…Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left” (Mt.24:36-37,40-41).

Here at the coming of the Son of Man “one shall be taken and the other left.” These words of the Lord Jesus were in answer to His disciples’ question concerning what will happen at “the end of the age”:

“Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Mt.24:3; NIV).

Earlier the Lord had spoken a parable where He spoke of a “harvest” which would occur at the “end of the age”:

“He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Mt.13:37-43).

So at the “end of the age” it will be the unrighteous who will be taken out of the world and the righteous who will remain. This is certainly not describing the event when Christians will be caught up in the air because then it will be the righteous who are taken and the
unrighteous who are left behind.

[Diggindeeper]

“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be…Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left” (Mt.24:36-37,40-41).

Here at the coming of the Son of Man “one shall be taken and the other left.” These words of the Lord Jesus were in answer to His disciples’ question concerning what will happen at “the end of the age”:

“Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Mt.24:3; NIV).

Earlier the Lord had spoken a parable where He spoke of a “harvest” which would occur at the “end of the age”:

“He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Mt.13:37-43).

So at the “end of the age” it will be the unrighteous who will be taken out of the world and the righteous who will remain. This is certainly not describing the event when Christians will be caught up in the air because then it will be the righteous who are taken and the
unrighteous who are left behind.

That's not what it says in the scripture reference you gave. Here it is:

“He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Mt.13:37-43).

HERE is what it actually says! (And you know, this was ONE of the references that, when I read it closely, caused me to abandon that the theory that the 'righteous' would be 'taken' and the wicked left behind!) It actually says this:

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:


And...Jesus himself said it would happen this way at the harvest, at the end! It is not the WICKED who are left behind, Jerry! Jesus said they ARE the ones who will be TAKEN and BURNED!

[asterisktom]

This poll was posted 36 days ago, and this was 6 years since a similar one was put on here. I think its interesting that as a whole, it appears that people's view of the timing of the rapture has changed significantly. Back in 2005, pre-trib rapture believers were slightly higher than non pretrib believers.

In six years time, here is the way the poll stands today in regard to the timing of the rapture, October 27, 2011:

Before the Great Tribulation..........................12...............29.27%

During the 7 year Tribulation...........................2...............4.88%

After the tribulation, when Christ returns.........19..............46.34%

Of those who have responded to the poll, 12 people (29.27%) believe in a pretrib rapture.

.................................................. ..........19 people (46.34%) believe in a post-trib,

Plus .................................................. .....2 people (4.88) believe the rapture will happen during the tribulation.

Making a total of 12 pretrib, and 21 who say Christ will return either during or after a tribulation period. This is a trend I have noticed in general during the past 5 or 6 years. The pretrib rapture believers used to be a wildly popular view, but from what I have been seeing, it is no longer as widely accepted as it used to be.

I still wonder if discussions on this board have caused anyone to re-examine their beliefs or not.

Most usually say they changed because they began to do their own detective work and actually studied deeper on their own. To do that, all preconceived notions must be laid aside and all scriptures must be scrutinized and considered and that is not an easy thing to do. (Or it wasn't for me.) People mainly find out they had been either overlooking certain scriptures or ignoring them without noticing they were doing that.

Anyway, I know this is not a scientific poll, but it is indicative of what I've noticed in the past 5 or 6 years.

I forget who asked about how beliefs have changed in the last several years. I had a very similar poll in my group (ABCProphecy) 10 years ago. The results can be seen here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PretDe...veys?id=895546

Of course, being a predominantly PreWrath group at the time, the results are skewed that way.

[JerryShugart]

And...Jesus himself said it would happen this way at the harvest, at the end! It is not the WICKED who are left behind, Jerry! Jesus said they ARE the ones who will be TAKEN and BURNED!

That is what I said.

I said that these verses are NOT describing the rapture because at the rapture it is the saved who are taken. In these verses it is the wicked who will be taken. Here are my words again:

So at the “end of the age” it will be the unrighteous who will be taken out of the world and the righteous who will remain. This is certainly not describing the event when Christians will be caught up in the air because then it will be the righteous who are taken and the
unrighteous who are left behind.

[Diggindeeper]

That is what I said.

I said that these verses are NOT describing the rapture because at the rapture it is the saved who are taken. In these verses it is the wicked who will be taken. Here are my words again:

So at the “end of the age” it will be the unrighteous who will be taken out of the world and the righteous who will remain. This is certainly not describing the event when Christians will be caught up in the air because then it will be the righteous who are taken and the
unrighteous who are left behind.

You can say this, but show us! i used scripture to prove my point. Can you do the same? You said plainly:

So at the “end of the age” it will be the unrighteous who will be taken out of the world and the righteous who will remain.

All I'm asking is scripture quotes to prove the above statement, that the 'unrighteous' will remain. If you can't provide scripture, it is only opinion and theory.