NEW UPDATED POLL: When is the rapture?

[vinsight4u8]

The sheep and the goats time is not for any dead people.
This is when the living after the 1000 years -after Satan has Gog time, will be divided up as to sheep and goats.

There will only be one time of raising the just; and it happened before the 1000 years - before Armageddon-before the pouring of the vials - at the 7th trumpet.
This is shown by 1 Cor. 15:54 to be when death in victory is swallowed up, and Jesus gives us the victory.

It seems that clear past the 1000 years and Satan is loosed, onlly the beast and the false prophet will have been cast into the lake of fire. At the time of the end of this world/age is when others get put there.

[John146]

The Lord Jesus' parable at Matthew 13 indicates that the saved will remain on the earth and there is nothing that even hints that they will be raptured:

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Mt.13:40-43).

The timing of this does occur around the time of His second coming, but notice that it says "the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father" after the wicked have been cast into the fire. So, this passage is speaking about what happens at the judgment. One being taken and one left has to do with what happens just before that, which is what Jesus talks about in Matt 24:29-31 and Matt 24:37-39. So, I'd like to know your thoughts on what I said regarding Matt 24:37-39 because that is the one that relates directly to one being taken and one left, not Matt 13:40-43.

Those verses are in regard to what will happen at the "end of the age" and the Lord Jesus' words in the following verse are also in regard to the same time and so therefore the 'kingdom" must be an earthly one:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).

When He comes THEN shall He sit upon His throne. And since the word "come" refers to coming to earth that means that it will be THEN, when He is on earth, when He will begin to rule.

Stop adding things to scripture that aren't there. There is no mention there of Jesus coming to the earth. It doesn't say where the judgment takes place. The kingdom believers will inherit at that time will be on the eternal new earth, not on this earth as we know it.

So at Matthew 13 the Lord is speaking about the saved remaining on earth when He says that "then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." [

Again, we will be on the new earth, not this earth as we know it. Notice that it refers to "the kingdom of their Father". That's an important distinction. You would say it's referring to the earthly kingdom of Christ. Not so. That's not what it says. When Christ returns He will deliver the kingdom to the Father:

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Since Christ will be delivering the kingdom to the Father, that is why He referred to the kingdom that believers will inherit at His return at the end of the age as "the kingdom of their Father".

There is nothing in these verses which even hint that the saved will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.

There's also no mention of an earthly millennial kingdom there. But arguments from silence prove nothing. We can look at the parallel passage of 1 Thess 4:14-17 to know that we will be caught up to meet Him at His second coming. Not every passage related to His second coming contains all of the details related to it.

[John146]

The sheep and the goats time is not for any dead people.

Sure, it is. Just compare Rev 20:11-15 to Matt 25:31-46. It describes the goats as being cast into the everlasting fire (Matt 25:41). When does that happen? After the dead are resurrected and all people are judged (Rev 20:11-15). There will not be two separate times when the wicked are cast into the fire. That will occur only once so Matt 25:41 is not speaking of a separate time than Rev 20:15.

This is when the living after the 1000 years -after Satan has Gog time, will be divided up as to sheep and goats.

It isn't just the living that will be divided up. It will include the dead that will be resurrected. Again, just compare Matt 25:31-46 to Rev 20:11-15. Matt 25:31-46 occurs "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him". You're right that it will be after the thousand years but since you're a premil you would try to say it occurs a thousand years after Christ's coming, which is not the case, as Matt 25:31 indicates.

[JerryShugart]

Stop adding things to scripture that aren't there. There is no mention there of Jesus coming to the earth.

If the verse is not showing the Lord Jesus coming to the earth then how will it be possible for all the tribes of the earth see Him when He comes in the clouds?:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).

There's also no mention of an earthly millennial kingdom there.

The Apostles were with the Lord Jesus after His resurrection when He spoke of the things concerning the kingdom:

"To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God"(Acts 1:6)

So if anyone could be considered an expert on the kingdom it was them and they believed that the Lord would "restore" the kingdom to Israel:　

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again (apokathistēmi) the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).

This Greek word apokathistēmi means "to restore to its former state, to be in its former state" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Since the kingdom of which the Apostles spoke was originally an "earthly" kingdom then when it will be resored it will once again be an "earthly" kingdom.

I'd like to know your thoughts on what I said regarding Matt 24:37-39 because that is the one that relates directly to one being taken and one left, not Matt 13:40-43.

Let us look at another place where the same thing is spoken of and see if the ones 'taken" are the saved or not:

"Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather" (Lk.17:35-37).

The discipes wanted to know "where" the ones will be taken and the Lord Jesus' answer makes it plain that the ones who will be taken are not the saved. But you say:

Just as a preview of what I plan to say about that passage I will just briefly say for now that it does not say "Taken where, Lord?".

Then please tell me what their question was in regard to.

[John146]

If the verse is not showing the Lord Jesus coming to the earth then how will it be possible for all the tribes of the earth see Him when He comes in the clouds?:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).

If He came all the way down to the earth somewhere right away at His return then how could they all see Him in that case? Only those who were in the area He came down to could see Him in that case. So, I'm not sure what your point is here.

The Apostles were with the Lord Jesus after His resurrection when He spoke of the things concerning the kingdom:

"To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God"(Acts 1:6)

So if anyone could be considered an expert on the kingdom it was them and they believed that the Lord would "restore" the kingdom to Israel:　

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again (apokathistēmi) the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).

This Greek word apokathistēmi means "to restore to its former state, to be in its former state" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Since the kingdom of which the Apostles spoke was originally an "earthly" kingdom then when it will be resored it will once again be an "earthly" kingdom.

You can't just read one verse and draw conclusions from it without looking at the context. He spoke of the nature of the kingdom and how it would start to grow in Israel and branch out from there after verse 6:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus indicated that He wasn't going to tell them exactly when it would occur but they would know the time of the kingdom being restored to Israel (and being expanded to the whole world) when they received the Holy Spirit and the power of the Holy Spirit in them so that they could take the gospel and advance His kingdom to the whole world, starting in Israel.

Let us look at another place where the same thing is spoken of and see if the ones 'taken" are the saved or not:

"Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather" (Lk.17:35-37).

The discipes wanted to know "where" the ones will be taken and the Lord Jesus' answer makes it plain that the ones who will be taken are not the saved. But you say:

Why, when I ask you to tell me your understanding of Matt 24:37-39, do you bring up a different passage? Can you please tell me how you interpret Matt 24:37-39 itself and how it would relate to one being taken and one being left?

Then please tell me what their question was in regard to.

Where it would be that one would be taken and another left. Jesus didn't specify exactly where that would occur. They weren't asking Him what location those who would be taken would be taken to. If that's what they were asking then what is the answer to that question? Where would they be taken to? How does His response answer that question? I believe His answer implies that one would be taken and one left everywhere in the world where there is people since eagles or vultures gather around corpses throughout the world. Matt 24:37-39 gives us the scope of one being taken and one being left as well. It's global.

[JerryShugart]

Why, when I ask you to tell me your understanding of Matt 24:37-39, do you bring up a different passage? Can you please tell me how you interpret Matt 24:37-39 itself and how it would relate to one being taken and one being left?

I have already explained my view. This will happen at the end of the age and those taken away are the unsaved and those who remain are the saved.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus indicated that He wasn't going to tell them exactly when it would occur but they would know the time of the kingdom being restored to Israel (and being expanded to the whole world) when they received the Holy Spirit and the power of the Holy Spirit in them so that they could take the gospel and advance His kingdom to the whole world, starting in Israel.

So now you admit that a kingdom will be restored to Israel? And what other kingdom can that be but the one that is in regard to the throne of David?:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2: 12).

Surely you will not deny that the "throne of David" spoken of in this verse relates to the "kingdom" which was established greatly, would you?

Of course that is the kingdom which the Apostles thought would be restored to Israel. Do you now see the truth that the throne of David relates to an earthly kingdom where the Lord Jesus will reign?

Now back to these verses:

"Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather" (Lk.17:35-37).

You say that the Apostles were asking "where" this would happen--where two women would be grinding grain together.

Where it would be that one would be taken and another left. Jesus didn't specify exactly where that would occur.

But if that is the question then the answer given by the Lord Jesus makes no sense whatsoever. If you are right then the Lord Jesus would be telling them that the two women were grinding grain together "where there is dead body," the same place where vultures gather. That is ridiculous since the time prior to this event all things were normal as they were before the flood:

"And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all" (Lk.17:26-27).

On the other hand, the Lord Jesus' answer would make perfect sense to those who asked if they were asking Him "where" it is that those go who are taken. They would understand that those taken are taken to where the vultures gather, a place where there are dead bodies. They would understand that those who will be taken will be the ones who are the unsaved.

And this demonstrates that the following verses are not describing the rapture:

"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be...Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:37,40-41).

When that happens it will be the unsaved who are taken but at the rapture it will be the saved who are taken and the unsaved who will be left behind.

And it is impossible to reconcile these verses with a post-trib rapture.

[John146]

I have already explained my view. This will happen at the end of the age and those taken away are the unsaved and those who remain are the saved.

You have not explained your view of Matt 24:37-39. Jesus compared what will happen at His coming directly to what happened in the flood. Who was taken and who was left behind in Noah's day? It was the wicked who were left behind to die. This is what I want you to address. How does your view line up with what Jesus said in Matt 24:37-39? I don't believe it does.

So now you admit that a kingdom will be restored to Israel?

No, I'm saying the kingdom was already restored to Israel by way of the preaching of the gospel in Israel and people then being saved and being added to the kingdom daily. But it's not a physical kingdom. The gospel was first preached in Israel and many people were added to the kingdom there and then it expanded to the Gentile nations and many more were added to the kingdom from those nations and that continues on today. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world which means it's not an earthly kingdom. Why are you trying to make it into an earthly kingdom?

And what other kingdom can that be but the one that is in regard to the throne of David?:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2: 12).

Surely you will not deny that the "throne of David" spoken of in this verse relates to the "kingdom" which was established greatly, would you?

Of course that is the kingdom which the Apostles thought would be restored to Israel. Do you now see the truth that the throne of David relates to an earthly kingdom where the Lord Jesus will reign?

That isn't the truth, so, no, I don't see it. In Acts 2:29-36 Peter said that the way in which Jesus was raised to sit on the throne of David was by was of Him being raised from the dead and then being exalted as Lord/King and Christ at the right hand of the Father.

Now back to these verses:

"Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather" (Lk.17:35-37).

You say that the Apostles were asking "where" this would happen--where two women would be grinding grain together.

But if that is the question then the answer given by the Lord Jesus makes no sense whatsoever. If you are right then the Lord Jesus would be telling them that the two women were grinding grain together "where there is dead body," the same place where vultures gather. That is ridiculous since the time prior to this event all things were normal as they were before the flood:

"And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all" (Lk.17:26-27).

On the other hand, the Lord Jesus' answer would make perfect sense to those who asked if they were asking Him "where" it is that those go who are taken. They would understand that those taken are taken to where the vultures gather, a place where there are dead bodies. They would understand that those who will be taken will be the ones who are the unsaved.

You're not making any sense here. If it's speaking of the wicked being taken somewhere then where exactly would that be? And, like I said earlier, in Noah's day who were the ones left behind and not allowed on the ark? The wicked. Jesus compared His coming directly to that but you are trying to say the ones left behind at His coming will be the saved. That doesn't line up with the analogy that Christ made in Matt 24:37-39. You can't brush Matt 24:37-39 aside. Please tell me how you reconcile that passage with your view. So far you have not done that.

And this demonstrates that the following verses are not describing the rapture:

"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be...Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:37,40-41).

When that happens it will be the unsaved who are taken but at the rapture it will be the saved who are taken and the unsaved who will be left behind.

And it is impossible to reconcile these verses with a post-trib rapture.

If that's the case then when do you plan on proving that? So far you have come nowhere near doing so. Jesus mentions the rapture in His Olivet Discourse. That is what the gathering of the elect that He mentioned in Matt 24:31 is about. But you think that Jesus doesn't even mention the rapture at all in the Olivet Discourse. Why would He have neglected to mention such a significant event?

[JerryShugart]

You have not explained your view of Matt 24:37-39. Jesus compared what will happen at His coming directly to what happened in the flood. Who was taken and who was left behind in Noah's day?

Of course the only people left on the face of the earth as a result of the flood were Noah and his family. They weere the ones "left" and it as the unbelievers who were taken.

No, I'm saying the kingdom was already restored to Israel by way of the preaching of the gospel in Israel and people then being saved and being added to the kingdom daily. But it's not a physical kingdom.

You make no sense whatsoever. The kingdom is to be "restored" to Israel and since it was a physical kingdom at first then it must also be a physical kingdom when it is "restored."

And what other kingdom can that be but the one that is in regard to the throne of David?:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2: 12).

Surely you will not deny that the "throne of David" spoken of in this verse relates to the "kingdom" which was established greatly, would you?

Of course that is the kingdom which the Apostles thought would be restored to Israel. Do you now see the truth that the throne of David relates to an earthly kingdom where the Lord Jesus will reign?

To this you answered:

That isn't the truth, so, no, I don't see it.

Are you not aware of the Davidic Covenant and the promises made that relate to that covenant? The Lord promised the following to David:

"Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever" (2 Sam.7:11-13).

That is the kingdom of which will be "resored to Israel" and it was a physical kingdom and an eartly kingdom. It had a "physical" and earthly" man as its king. The throne was "physical" and it was an "earthly" throne:

"Moreover the king made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with the best gold. The throne had six steps, and the top of the throne was round behind: and there were stays on either side on the place of the seat, and two lions stood beside the stays. And twelve lions stood there on the one side and on the other upon the six steps: there was not the like made in any kingdom" (1 Ki.18-20).

But you cannot see this. So if it was not this kingdom which the Apostles believed would be "restored to Israel" which kingdom is it? Here we can see that the "earthly kingdom" was indeed in regard to Israel:

"Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee, to set thee on the throne of Israel: because the LORD loved Israel for ever, therefore made he thee king, to do judgment and justice" (1 Ki.10:9).

Again, if this kingdom is not the one which the Apostles thought would be "restored to Israel" then which kingdom was? And please support your answer by quotimg passages out of the Scriptures.

Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world which means it's not an earthly kingdom. Why are you trying to make it into an earthly kingdom?

You should read the verse which you cite because He said that it not "now" of the world:

"Jesus answered, my kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (Jn.18:36).

You're not making any sense here.

I'm not making sense. I would say that you are the one who makes no sense. In regard to the question asked by the apostles you said:

Where it would be that one would be taken and another left. Jesus didn't specify exactly where that would occur.

Of course you failed to even attempt to defend what I said that proves that that idea is in error. I said:

"Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather" (Lk.17:35-37).

You say that the Apostles were asking "where" this would happen--where two women would be grinding grain together.

But if that is the question then the answer given by the Lord Jesus makes no sense whatsoever. If you are right then the Lord Jesus would be telling them that the two women were grinding grain together "where there is dead body," the same place where vultures gather. That is ridiculous since the time prior to this event all things were normal as they were before the flood:

"And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all" (Lk.17:26-27).

If it's speaking of the wicked being taken somewhere then where exactly would that be?

The Lord Jesus told them that it will be where there is a dead body and there will the vulture gather. That certainly is not an answer to "where" two women will be grinding grain together, as you imagine. but instead the answer as to the fate of those who will be taken. I defend my view but you did not even attempt to defend your idea.

And, like I said earlier, in Noah's day who were the ones left behind and not allowed on the ark? The wicked. Jesus compared His coming directly to that but you are trying to say the ones left behind at His coming will be the saved. That doesn't line up with the analogy that Christ made in Matt 24:37-39. You can't brush Matt 24:37-39 aside. Please tell me how you reconcile that passage with your view. So far you have not done that.

Who were "left" and who were "destroyed" as a result of the flood?:

"They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all" (Lk.17:27).

But you think that Jesus doesn't even mention the rapture at all in the Olivet Discourse. Why would He have neglected to mention such a significant event?

the things of which He spoke about there are according to "prophecy" but the things in regard to the rapture were kept secret and are therefore called a "mystery":

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).

The Lord Jesus never said anything about any living saints meeting im in the air and putting on bodies like His glorious body. And the OT prophecies will be searched in vain for any mention of that truth.

Now tell me which kingdom that Apostles believed would be "restored to Israel." And please at least attempt to defend what you said here:

Where it would be that one would be taken and another left. Jesus didn't specify exactly where that would occur.

Thanks! I eagerly await your answers.

[thedee]

Jesus mentions the rapture in His Olivet Discourse. That is what the gathering of the elect that He mentioned in Matt 24:31 is about. But you think that Jesus doesn't even mention the rapture at all in the Olivet Discourse. Why would He have neglected to mention such a significant event?

This is not the rapture. The elect here in Matthew 24 are the Jews. If Jesus was talking about the Rapture here then why did Paul still call it a mystery?

[John 8:32]

This is not the rapture. The elect here in Matthew 24 are the Jews. If Jesus was talking about the Rapture here then why did Paul still call it a mystery?

The elect are the church.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Do you suppose a False Christ could win over the Jews after the real one was unable to?

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

2Jn 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2Jn 1:2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
2Jn 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

2Jn 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

[thedee]

The elect are the church.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Do you suppose a False Christ could win over the Jews after the real one was unable to?

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

2Jn 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2Jn 1:2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
2Jn 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

2Jn 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

The elect of Matthew 24 are Jews. You can quote other scriptures that have "elect" in them and try to apply it to Matthew 24 but that don't work.

Is the trumpet blast of Is 27:13 (Is 11:12) the same as in Matthew 24:31?

[John 8:32]

The elect of Matthew 24 are Jews. You can quote other scriptures that have "elect" in them and try to apply it to Matthew 24 but that don't work.

Is the trumpet blast of Is 27:13 (Is 11:12) the same as in Matthew 24:31?

And you can not quote scripture here to try to apply it to your view. The elect are the church.

[John146]

Of course the only people left on the face of the earth as a result of the flood were Noah and his family. They weere the ones "left" and it as the unbelievers who were taken.

Taken where? The Greek word translated as "taken" is paralambanō and it means "to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self". So, with this in mind where were the unbelievers taken? Nowhere. They were left behind outside of the ark to die. Noah and his family were taken to safety in the ark. It's just like Lot. Jesus compared His coming to what happened to Lot as well (Luke 17:26-30). He was taken to a place of safety while those who were left behind were destroyed. At Christ's coming the ones who will be taken from one place to another are believers. We will be taken from the earth up to Christ "in the air". The wicked will be left behind and destroyed.

You make no sense whatsoever.

You make no sense to me whatsoever, either, so the feeling is mutual.

The kingdom is to be "restored" to Israel and since it was a physical kingdom at first then it must also be a physical kingdom when it is "restored."

And what other kingdom can that be but the one that is in regard to the throne of David?:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2: 12).

Surely you will not deny that the "throne of David" spoken of in this verse relates to the "kingdom" which was established greatly, would you?

Of course that is the kingdom which the Apostles thought would be restored to Israel. Do you now see the truth that the throne of David relates to an earthly kingdom where the Lord Jesus will reign?

You are very repetitive. You do know that I've already addressed all of this, right? Between this thread and your "Throne of David" thread I have addressed all of this already. So, you either like to repeat discussions that we've already had or you don't read my posts carefully enough to realize that I've already addressed this. So, which is it?

Are you not aware of the Davidic Covenant and the promises made that relate to that covenant? The Lord promised the following to David:

"Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever" (2 Sam.7:11-13).

That is the kingdom of which will be "resored to Israel" and it was a physical kingdom and an eartly kingdom.

But if you accepted what Peter taught in Acts 2:29-36 you would acknowledge that the fulfillment of that prophecy had to do with Christ's resurrection and Him being raised up as Lord/King and Christ at the right hand of the Father. Christ's kingdom is not of this world and never will be. Just as we, as His followers, are not of this world and never will be.

It had a "physical" and earthly" man as its king. The throne was "physical" and it was an "earthly" throne:

"Moreover the king made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with the best gold. The throne had six steps, and the top of the throne was round behind: and there were stays on either side on the place of the seat, and two lions stood beside the stays. And twelve lions stood there on the one side and on the other upon the six steps: there was not the like made in any kingdom" (1 Ki.18-20).

Ah, but we are talking about the throne of David here, not the throne of Solomon. That is speaking of Solomon's throne. It says Christ would be sitting on David's throne, not Solomon's throne. If the idea was that Christ was going to take over the earthly kingdom then it would be talking about him taking over on Solomon's throne. But you lack the discernment to recognize that it's all about Christ taking His place as the King over His spiritual kingdom on David's throne.

But you cannot see this. So if it was not this kingdom which the Apostles believed would be "restored to Israel" which kingdom is it?

His kingdom that is not of this world, of course.

Again, if this kingdom is not the one which the Apostles thought would be "restored to Israel" then which kingdom was? And please support your answer by quotimg passages out of the Scriptures.

I've already done so in the Throne of David thread.

You should read the verse which you cite because He said that it not "now" of the world:

"Jesus answered, my kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (Jn.18:36).

See my response in the Throne of David thread. If you want to talk about Christ's kingdom and/or the throne of David we can talk about that over there. I'm not interested in having the same exact conversation in two different threads.

I'm not making sense. I would say that you are the one who makes no sense.

I think we've pretty well established that each of us thinks the other doesn't make any sense. But maybe we don't need to point that out repeatedly, eh? You can just assume that no matter what you say to me it's not going to make any sense to me. I'll let you know when things you say do make sense to me, otherwise you can assume that they don't make sense to me.

The Lord Jesus told them that it will be where there is a dead body and there will the vulture gather. That certainly is not an answer to "where" two women will be grinding grain together, as you imagine. but instead the answer as to the fate of those who will be taken. I defend my view but you did not even attempt to defend your idea.

I have defended everything I've said to you so don't try to play this game with me.

the things of which He spoke about there are according to "prophecy" but the things in regard to the rapture were kept secret and are therefore called a "mystery":

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).

You continue to read things into scripture that aren't there. The mystery here is not believers being gathered and caught up to meet the Lord (which is what the word rapture refers to), it is that we will all be changed in a moment at the last trumpet. He mentioned the gathering of the elect in the Olivet Discourse so that was not a mystery. Just because He didn't go into the detail that Paul did in 1 Thess 4 doesn't mean that was a mystery. The mystery is just what it says: that we shall not all sleep (die) but we shall all be changed in a moment at the last trumpet.

Thanks! I eagerly await your answers.

You mean the answers that I've already given you? Please read my posts more carefully so that you don't keep asking me to answer questions that I've already answered. If I haven't answered them here, I've answered them in the Throne of David thread.

[John146]

This is not the rapture. The elect here in Matthew 24 are the Jews. If Jesus was talking about the Rapture here then why did Paul still call it a mystery?

Paul didn't call it a mystery. Do you see any mention of it being a mystery in 1 Thess 4:14-17? In 1 Cor 15:51-54 Paul is not talking specifically about the rapture itself. Yes, that passage has the same timing as 1 Thess 4:14-17, but the word rapture refers to us being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That isn't the mystery. What Paul said is a mystery is that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.". I don't see anything there about us being gathered to Christ as being part of the mystery.

[thedee]

Paul didn't call it a mystery. Do you see any mention of it being a mystery in 1 Thess 4:14-17? In 1 Cor 15:51-54 Paul is not talking specifically about the rapture itself. Yes, that passage has the same timing as 1 Thess 4:14-17, but the word rapture refers to us being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That isn't the mystery. What Paul said is a mystery is that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.". I don't see anything there about us being gathered to Christ as being part of the mystery.

I believe that Matthew 24 is speaking of an earthly gathering from the 4 winds.... and 1Thes4; 1cor15 to be a gathering that takes place in the air.

I know we have hashed this out before so I am not going to go into much detail but let you and Jerry hash it out.