Dispensationalism

[MaryFreeman]

...I can't promise that... Just ask my husband. (Just kidding. And i hope he agrees. I've worked for him a LONG time and I'd hate for him to fire me now! I'd lose a lot of good benefits. LOL)

I too, honestly believe and agree that we believers will end up together. Its how we get there and when that we disagree.

But I just think maybe some of us may end up laughing our heads off at the times we argued and debated how it was gonna end up, and your way or mine (one or the other) ended up different than the way we'd fussed so adamently! Now that will be funny to look back to.........

I would love one day to have a discussion with you.... With neither one of us trying to convince the other.... In a thread for Rapture talk.... I have loads of things to say but still believe the Rapture is a separate issue from Dispensationalism.... I still don't see the connection.... But I have a horrid headache right now so I will have to write something up later....

[MaryFreeman]

That's the response I always expect. Nobody really wants to know anything beyond a certain point. It's usually indoctrination, though that may or may not be true in your case.

Well I asked for something beyond your main point! Soooooooo?

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Ok I appreciate that you have a view.... But one line doesn't help with what I am trying to do.... Which is understand why folks seem to have a problem with dispensationalism.... So far I have seen people posting views on it based on what they have learned from admittedly smarter people than me.... But my experience with dispensationalism and Rapture theology is the exact opposite of what I have seen on this thread.... What I would like to know is why you feel the way you do.... Can you please expound upon this statement?

Well... I was a Dispensationalist for a couple of decades. Taught it; preached it; defended and promoted it. Then I was gloriously saved after years in the pulpit, and God taught and corrected me by the Spirit.

That's what it will take for others to abandon the heinous and grievous error of Dispensationalism. My treatise would make little if any difference. Opinions will be declared; scripture will be quoted; minds and hearts will not change.

It's like Godhead doctrine or the Calvi-Armi debate. It's just a lob-fest of proof-texting and rhetoric from opposing bunkers.

To all Dispies and other Pre-Mills... Beware the leaven of the Pharisees. (But you won't know what that really means.)

Proceed with the Rhetoric grenades. :-P

[MaryFreeman]

Well... I was a Dispensationalist for a couple of decades. Taught it; preached it; defended and promoted it. Then I was gloriously saved after years in the pulpit, and God taught and corrected me by the Spirit.

That's what it will take for others to abandon the heinous and grievous error of Dispensationalism. My treatise would make little if any difference. Opinions will be declared; scripture will be quoted; minds and hearts will not change.

It's like Godhead doctrine or the Calvi-Armi debate. It's just a lob-fest of proof-texting and rhetoric from opposing bunkers.

To all Dispies and other Pre-Mills... Beware the leaven of the Pharisees. (But you won't know what that really means.)

Proceed with the Rhetoric grenades. :-P

This was rather.... Errrrrr.... Anticlimactic? Kind of like when the hero dies in his sleep at the end of an action packed movie.... ....

So what did you preach? And what made you stop? Please provide specifics!

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

This was rather.... Errrrrr.... Anticlimactic? Kind of like when the hero dies in his sleep at the end of an action packed movie.... ....

Yeah, sorry. I spend a good bit of my time on a daily basis dealing with this topic and a few others on a couple of forums and in live local ministry. It may seem obtuse, but I'm just too disgusted to expend the energy when most minds are made up, and most are from rote inherited default indoctrination. I was such, and it took the Spirit years to correct me.

So what did you preach?

Straight Scofieldian, Darbyite full-press Pre-Trib Rapture Dispensationalism with all the trimmings and "ages".

And what made you stop? Please provide specifics!

Personally, it was my true salvation and the subsequent reading and study of the Word apart from influences and indoctrination. There simply wasn't one detail that stood up to intense scrutiny while praying and fasting through the Word. Also from intricately knowing the means and agenda of the persecution during the Eschaton.

It would take at least a few small volumes and would be summarily dismissed. And... I'm mobile on my iPhone. My apologies for the earlier drive-by; it's just difficult to keep silent. Besides... My revelation of the Godhead leaves me on the perimeter of credibility with the Trinitarian hoarde anyway.

When the tribunals begin and un-raptured believers are facing the guillotine for idolatry if they don't denounce Jesus; just remember some heretic on BF said "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

Grace and mercy to all. We're gonna need it.

[Diggindeeper]

Yeah, sorry. I spend a good bit of my time on a daily basis dealing with this topic and a few others on a couple of forums and in live local ministry. It may seem obtuse, but I'm just too disgusted to expend the energy when most minds are made up, and most are from rote inherited default indoctrination. I was such, and it took the Spirit years to correct me.

Straight Scofieldian, Darbyite full-press Pre-Trib Rapture Dispensationalism with all the trimmings and "ages".

Personally, it was my true salvation and the subsequent reading and study of the Word apart from influences and indoctrination. There simply wasn't one detail that stood up to intense scrutiny while praying and fasting through the Word. Also from intricately knowing the means and agenda of the persecution during the Eschaton.

It would take at least a few small volumes and would be summarily dismissed. And... I'm mobile on my iPhone. My apologies for the earlier drive-by; it's just difficult to keep silent. Besides... My revelation of the Godhead leaves me on the perimeter of credibility with the Trinitarian hoarde anyway.

When the tribunals begin and un-raptured believers are facing the guillotine for idolatry if they don't denounce Jesus; just remember some heretic on BF said "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

Grace and mercy to all. We're gonna need it.

To be honest, PPS, the other side does sound more soothing, until you understand the whole of the truth! Yes, we will need the grace and mercy of God. And for some, it WILL be there! I'm guessing when you did believe and teach all that before...were you not able to see it then as 'escapism'? And I bet you were adament too in upholding it?

[northwye]

On this forum about two weeks ago I posted, "The Interpretative Authority In Postponement Theology" which is dispensationalism. It is long, and I think its still up, though it may be on page 2 or 3 by now.

I said "Again, the problem in discussing scripture with followers of
postponement theology is not just that they do not know scripture well
enough, but that they do not share the interpretations of scripture
with those of the Remnant. Its a conflict between interpretative
authority. The postponement people will take scriptures and interpret
them by their interpretative authority, their theology, and hold up
these scriptures as authority. Remnant people may set up other
scriptures as authority which contradict the meanings assigned to them
by the postponement crowd. There is no easy winning of such an
argument, and, in fact, the Holy Spirit does not want debate,
especially not endless debate, but the intent, "It is written," and
agreement with Him."

In a debate with dispensationalists, because of this large difference in
interpretative authority, they will often answer by use of the dialectic, which avoids a head on
focus upon this division in views. They come at you from the side, sometimes
attacking you, sometimes misrepresenting what you have said, and sometimes
bringing up scriptures that are really not relevant to the issue under discussion.

Its not a good idea to try to answer their dialectic.

Dean Gotcher has been for years the expert on the dialectic. See:

http://authorityresearch.com/File De...an Gotcher.htm

[MaryFreeman]

On this forum about two weeks ago I posted, "The Interpretative Authority In Postponement Theology" which is dispensationalism. It is long, and I think its still up, though it may be on page 2 or 3 by now.

I said "Again, the problem in discussing scripture with followers of
postponement theology is not just that they do not know scripture well
enough, but that they do not share the interpretations of scripture
with those of the Remnant. Its a conflict between interpretative
authority. The postponement people will take scriptures and interpret
them by their interpretative authority, their theology, and hold up
these scriptures as authority. Remnant people may set up other
scriptures as authority which contradict the meanings assigned to them
by the postponement crowd. There is no easy winning of such an
argument, and, in fact, the Holy Spirit does not want debate,
especially not endless debate, but the intent, "It is written," and
agreement with Him."

"And as before, until the follower of postponement theology changes his
interpretative authority, he is not going to be convinced by New Testament
scripture"

...............................................

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

On this forum about two weeks ago I posted, "The Interpretative Authority In Postponement Theology" which is dispensationalism. It is long, and I think its still up, though it may be on page 2 or 3 by now.

I said "Again, the problem in discussing scripture with followers of
postponement theology is not just that they do not know scripture well
enough, but that they do not share the interpretations of scripture
with those of the Remnant. Its a conflict between interpretative
authority. The postponement people will take scriptures and interpret
them by their interpretative authority, their theology, and hold up
these scriptures as authority. Remnant people may set up other
scriptures as authority which contradict the meanings assigned to them
by the postponement crowd. There is no easy winning of such an
argument, and, in fact, the Holy Spirit does not want debate,
especially not endless debate, but the intent, "It is written," and
agreement with Him."

In a debate with dispensationalists, because of this large difference in
interpretative authority, they will often answer by use of the dialectic, which avoids a head on
focus upon this division in views. They come at you from the side, sometimes
attacking you, sometimes misrepresenting what you have said, and sometimes
bringing up scriptures that are really not relevant to the issue under discussion.

Its not a good idea to try to answer their dialectic.

Dean Gotcher has been for years the expert on the dialectic. See:

http://authorityresearch.com/File De...an Gotcher.htm

Excellent! A concise perspective. I will find and read it.

It actually applies to a cross-section of debates between other diametrically opposed doctrines as well.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

To be honest, PPS, the other side does sound more soothing, until you understand the whole of the truth! Yes, we will need the grace and mercy of God. And for some, it WILL be there! I'm guessing when you did believe and teach all that before...were you not able to see it then as 'escapism'?

No. Totally oblivious. I was absolutely indoctrinated from my earliest years as a child. It was defacto assent; zeal, but not according to knowldege.

And I bet you were adament too in upholding it?

Yes, and largely because I refused to consider anything beyond my own perview. I was the worst; the most pathetic of all. I was adamant before even really studying, which was just self-confirmation from a preconceived position and perception.

[Diggindeeper]

That is the danger of indoctrination. And mainly, people don't even know they/we ARE totally indoctrinated!

The trouble is, indoctrination blinds.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

That is the danger of indoctrination. And mainly, people don't even know they/we ARE totally indoctrinated!

The trouble is, indoctrination blinds.

Yes, and that's why I challenge default positions of doctrine. Few really ever spend time praying and fasting through a study of the Word for the truth at any cost.

Indoctrination left me lost and blinded at the hands of men's doctrine. That's why I so staunchly oppose orthodox Godhead teaching and Dispukesationalism; and I contend that the Calvi/Armi debate is the grand-poobah-daddy of all false dichotomies.

If Dispies knew what was transpiring right NOW, they wouldn't be able to maintain such a position. Even most non-Dispies are unaware of the source and agenda of what is ushering in the Eschaton.

Beware the leaven of the Pharisees.

[Mark F]

On this forum about two weeks ago I posted, "The Interpretative Authority In Postponement Theology" which is dispensationalism. It is long, and I think its still up, though it may be on page 2 or 3 by now.

I said "Again, the problem in discussing scripture with followers of
postponement theology is not just that they do not know scripture well
enough, but that they do not share the interpretations of scripture
with those of the Remnant. Its a conflict between interpretative
authority. The postponement people will take scriptures and interpret
them by their interpretative authority, their theology, and hold up
these scriptures as authority. Remnant people may set up other
scriptures as authority which contradict the meanings assigned to them
by the postponement crowd. There is no easy winning of such an
argument, and, in fact, the Holy Spirit does not want debate,
especially not endless debate, but the intent, "It is written," and
agreement with Him."

In a debate with dispensationalists, because of this large difference in
interpretative authority, they will often answer by use of the dialectic, which avoids a head on
focus upon this division in views. They come at you from the side, sometimes
attacking you, sometimes misrepresenting what you have said, and sometimes
bringing up scriptures that are really not relevant to the issue under discussion.

Its not a good idea to try to answer their dialectic.

Dean Gotcher has been for years the expert on the dialectic. See:

http://authorityresearch.com/File De...an Gotcher.htm

Hegelian Dialectic?

Through what he calls diaprax or something.

I read about that years ago, can't say I remember that the Hegelian dialectic was used by dispensationalists to fascillitate brainwashing of covenant theologens!! Mostly this came up because of the purpose driven and emergent church movement, I seriously don't remember in the articles I read that it was being used as a method of desception by dispensationalists, If I remember that he alludes to marxism and communism, LOL, oh well.

Think I may digress, seems that I need to have an extreme pov which I don't have. I think I have misunderstood the whole driving force of this thread.

I suppose in your extreme veiws that someone who believes in dispensationism is lost and doesen't have a chance of understanding the gospel right?

I see now why I sensed a certain "tension".

[MaryFreeman]

Ok all here is the deal.... I find words like "indoctrination" and phrases like "totally oblivious" to be slightly inflammatory.... I know no one means things that way.... May I state that we are all indoctrinated.... No matter which position one holds.... That one looks for people and treatises to indoctrinate them.... When we are children we are indoctrinated by our parents and school and our society.... We as Americans are indoctrinated into Americanism.... As Christians we are indoctrinated into Christianity.... That is the way it is.... Without indoctrination of some sort we end up mindless idiots.... Or totally on the wrong side of society in general.... So everyone here is indoctrinated in one way of thinking or another.... I don't think it is conducive to my research or our conversation to start letting emotion start controlling what we say.... And I say that because I have done it before.... And it really didn't help....

[episkopos]

Ok all here is the deal.... I find words like "indoctrination" and phrases like "totally oblivious" to be slightly inflammatory.... I know no one means things that way.... May I state that we are all indoctrinated.... No matter which position one holds.... That one looks for people and treatises to indoctrinate them.... When we are children we are indoctrinated by our parents and school and our society.... We as Americans are indoctrinated into Americanism.... As Christians we are indoctrinated into Christianity.... That is the way it is.... Without indoctrination of some sort we end up mindless idiots.... Or totally on the wrong side of society in general.... So everyone here is indoctrinated in one way of thinking or another.... I don't think it is conducive to my research or our conversation to start letting emotion start controlling what we say.... And I say that because I have done it before.... And it really didn't help....

We must call things as they are at one point. We live in the day of "friendly fire" and "smart bombs". Anything but the truth!

Most people are indoctrinated...that is until they are awakened. We are to become free in Christ, not enslaved to a somewhat larger jail cell of carnal reasoning taken from a skewed view of the bible.