Posting Freak
Yeah, what was I thinking?Originally Posted by David Taylor
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Not really, He was just kidding about that one.
"Christ is all" Col 3:11
Great salvation line....but it's not talking about post-death salvation.
That's where your thinking is off.
Romans 11 is talking about the progression of salvation of all Israel (both faithful wild and faithful natural branches) that will be concluded by the 2nd Coming, when Jesus the Deliverer returns from Zion.
Salvation is never a postponed event.
Read Isaiah.
Read John.
Read Paul.
Very clearly do they tell us 'today' is the appointed time, 'today' is the day of salvation.
Noone is going to be offered salvation after death.
Posting Freak
Interesting you should quote that...
2Cor 6:2 is quoting...
Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
If you do a little investigation you will find that in 2Cor 6:2 that "is" and "the" should be italicised: means they are not in the original greek.
"for He saith, `In an acceptable time I did hear thee, and in a day of salvation I did help thee, lo, now [is] a well-accepted time; lo, now, a day of salvation,'" -- (YLT)
"(for he says, I have listened to thee in an accepted time, and I have helped thee in a day of salvation: behold, now [is the] well-accepted time; behold, now [the] day of salvation" -- (Darby's Translation)
It is better rendered a day of salvation.
Where do we find corroboration?
the First Resurrection...
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Who are the rest of the dead here in this parenthetical thought?
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Vs 7-10 are important, but not for this discussion
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Here are the rest of the dead...
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; (remember, the first resurrection occurred 1000 years prior to this) and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The Book of Life is opened, but what are these other books that are opened, all sixty-six of them?
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Shows not all are cast into the LoF, only the ones who don't get their names written into the book of life.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And this second go-round of resurrection occurs when?
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
John saw the future clearly and in it he saw more than one judgment period.
Posting Freak
By the way, this is not a doctrine of universal salvation. I do not believe in US and this is not even another chance, it is a first chance for some who have never had their first chance.
Veteran
Can you affirm that it is impossible for God to accomplish something that He expressly wills?
Coffee Break
His will is that all are saved, but He will not override anyone's will, therefore it is impossible for Him to force people to love Him, as He has given us a sovereign will of our own.
Matthew 7:13-14 NLV
“Go in through the narrow door. The door is wide and the road is easy that leads to hell. Many people are going through that door. But the door is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life that lasts forever. Few people are finding it.
2 Peter 3:9 NLV
The Lord is not slow about keeping His promise as some people think. He is waiting for you. The Lord does not want any person to be punished forever. He wants all people to be sorry for their sins and turn from them.
His will is that we all be well, yet we get sick and die, many because they do not realize that they have authority over sickness in Jesus Christ. Is that God being unable to accomplish healing? No, it is man's inability to appropriate what God provides.
Humans tie the hands of God.
Veteran
Edited because what I said was unkind. I apologize
Last edited by nimblewillsgrace; Oct 8th 2011 at 05:11 PM. Reason: Unkind post
Veteran
How do you see the whole potter and clay scenario? It appears that sometimes that is exactly what God does, "overrides" our will? Maybe not yours but He certainly has mine.
Coffee Break
***
Those who accept the view that God will redeem "the whole creation" are at odds with Jesus Christ. At Matthew 7:13, 14, Jesus said: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."
Many have the opinion that just because a person claims to be a Christian, then he is one. Most have heard of counterfeit money. Likewise of those who make a profession of being "Christian", but are counterfeit. In the business world, ISO 9001 must be attained and maintained if a business is to succeed. It is the standard that provides a set of standardized requirements for a quality management system. Counterfeit products are inferior to the quality standards of ISO 9001.
Many who say they are "Christian" are counterfeit. Jesus said: "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you ! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness."(Matt 7:21-23)
Jesus further said: "Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say? "(Luke 6:46) Just as in producing a quality product, high standards must be met and maintained. Of a true Christian, these have met the high standards set forth in the Bible. The Bible provides identifying marks of a true Christian that results in everlasting life, be it in heaven as "kings and priests"(Rev 5:9, 10) or upon a paradise earth in which "meek" ones will live in the "abundance of peace."(Ps 37:11, 29; Matt 5:5)
(1) Those who practice it have genuine love among themselves.(John 13:34,35; 1 John 4:8)
(2) All their beliefs are based on the Bible.(John 17:17; 2 Tim 3:16,17)
(3) They pray for God's name of Jehovah to be hallowed or sanctified. (Matt 6:9; Ps 83:18)
(4) They proclaim God's kingdom in all the earth, not some political or social philosophy.(Matt 24:14; Acts 28:23)
(5) They keep separate from the world's affairs, untainted by the world's politics or conflicts, remaining neutral in time of war.(James 1:27; John 17:14)
(6) They put God's kingdom and his righteousness first in their lives.(Matt 6:33)
(7) They cultivate the fruitage of God's spirit, not condoning war or personal violence.(Gal 5:22,23; Rom 12:17-21)
(8) They obey all human laws not contrary to God's law.(Rom 13:1-7)
(9) The true religion successfully unites people of every race, language, and tribe. It does not preach nationalism or hatred, but love worldwide.(Isaiah 2:2-4; Col 3:10,11)
(10) The true religion teaches the truth regarding God's purpose for man and the earth.(Matt 5:5; Ps 115:16; Isaiah 45:18)
<--Bluebird of Happiness
Guestman, you are bringing in plenty of your Watchtower beliefs, like in bringing in the topic of 'against war'. So, much of your post is irrelevant to the discussion.
The fact is, as David Tayor clearly laid out in his post...Universal Salvation is heresy. The fact, from all scriptures, is that there are NO second chances after death. Anyone who teaches otherwise is off into heresy.
My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16
"Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)
Product of Grace
This is a good point, but it is possible that the author agrees with a more Calvinistic view in order to make their argument. At least, that is one way that I have imagined this topic.
Calvinistic: Jesus Christ provided the atonement in His death on the cross, saving those for which He died. Those for which Jesus died will be saved because the atonement supplied by Jesus Christ is 100% effective in application of the purpose achieved. Those that Jesus died for are the elect and "predestined" to salvation by the will of God and those that Jesus did not die for are reprobate and "predestined" to destruction. This is the "double predestination" model of Calvin.
Universal Reconciliation: Jesus Christ provided the atonement in His death on the cross, saving those for which He died.Those for which Jesus died will be saved because the atonement supplied by Jesus Christ is ultimately 100% effective in application of the purpose achieved. Jesus died for all, thus all will be saved.
The thing to note here is that true doctrine, in neither of those two scenarios as a potential reality, is important with regards to salvation; doctrine is only relevant as an explanation in knowing "why" we find ourselves saved. If we can teach and believe any which way that we want without the potential of deceiving or deception having any eternal consequence, then why not promote something that pleases our view of things?
Watchinginawe
I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.
Coffee Break
***
The 10 identifying marks of a true Christian give evidence that universal salvation is not true, for the vast majority of mankind will never measure up to them as Jesus stated at Matthew 7:13, 14. And of the death in which there is "no second chances" is the "second death" that is also called "the lake of fire" at Revelation 20:14. The "lake of fire" is also Gehenna (everlasting destruction), a word Jesus used 7 times (Matt 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33) and James once.(James 3:6)
However of Adamic death which is a result of sin from our forefather Adam (Rom 5:12), there is the hope of a resurrection for those who are in the "memorial tombs".(John 5:28, 29, "memorial tombs", Greek mnemeion) Of those who are held captive by Adamic death, Revelation 20:13 says: "And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des ("hell", King James Bible, mankind's common grave) gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds."
Member
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Can someone please tell me what the difference between Universal Reconciliation and Universal Salvation are? I thought they were just two names for the same belief system and were actually interchangeable. (I subscribe to this belief btw).
guest
***
There are synonymous.
Can someone please tell me what the difference between Universal Reconciliation and Universal Salvation are? I thought they were just two names for the same belief system and were actually interchangeable. (I subscribe to this belief btw).
Grand Master
I was once in a conversation with someone who used Romans 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5:18 and Colossians 1:22 to teach that through the death and resurrection of Christ ALL men are AUTOMATICALLY reconciled. He even mentioned "dual justification." He said, "Christ justified ALL mankind automatically through His death and resurrection (phase 1), so that through faith one might be justified (phase 2) to God." Of course I disagree. I've heard the teaching that everyone will eventually be saved (which I also disagree with), but he teaches that ALL MANKIND was automatically saved through the death and resurrection of Christ (at least initially) and this gets you in the door to be eternally saved based on your works. When I disagreed with him, he became belligerent with me and even claimed that ONLY his church (the Orthodox church) is the true Church, the Body of Christ which can trace it's roots all the way back to Pentecost. Are there different types of Universal Reconciliation being taught? All will everntually be saved? All were automatically saved?
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