Universal Reconciliation

[LightofTabor]

David Taylor,

I noticed that you responded to nothing I said post #72. Can you do so in the interest of engaging in a genuine discussion?

[David Taylor]

Universal Reconciliation is the notion that every human being, 100%, will be saved.

By that nature, it does render the need of a saviour irrelevant.

Non-sequitir. That's like saying that there is no need for the sun in the case that the sun energizes all plants.
We Christian Universalists believe that Jesus is the saviour of all men.

And that is the flaw of UR. It assumes that all men will be saved. Jesus as savior, is only the savior of those who are saved. Scripture tells us many times over, that a large portion of men reject God, and are eternally damned and lost in their sins, separated from Christ.

It assumes that 100% of all men will be saved.

By virtue of Jesus.

Jesus is the mechanism bywhich all humans have the opportunity to be saved. Many humans however, choose to reject that opportunity, and remain lost and unsaved.

If everyone is saved, there is nothing to be lost from, and no need for a saviour to save anyone from being lost; because noone can be lost.

Nonsense. Salvation is from sin and death, and both are very real, even in the case that all are finally delivered from it.

All are not finally delivered from sin and death. Only those who belong to Jesus Christ are delivered. Once the eternal state is delivered, the judgement is over, and all mortal, physical life is ended; there will unsaved, lost humans existing in the eternal state, according to the scriptures; who never partook of salvation; who are still plagued by sin and death .

Hypothetically, Christ is the the 'potential' savior of all men, 'potentially' 100% could be saved by Him, 'if' all 100% of men would repent and follow and trust Him.

Jesus is never called the potential saviour, He is called the saviour. Big difference.

'Potential' is my word, but the intent of it, is found throughout the scriptures.

Jesus is only the saviour of whosoever will repent and follow Him.

Matthew 16:25 "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? "

Rev 22:17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

Those who reject Jesus are never saved, thus they have no saviour.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

This life is the only life we have. There is no such thing as a post-life, after-death salvation opportunity.

What verses do you have to support this? How can death have the final say on the fate of any of God's loved ones, when death itself will be destroyed? And doesn't God's mercy last forever?

God's mercy lasts forever to those who belong to Him. Many humans reject God, and spend enternity without His mercy; enjoying only the fruits of their rejection of Him; getting their wish, being relegated to the place of torment and darkness, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matt 25:41"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:And these shall go away into everlasting punishment"

Psalms 83:17 "Let them be confounded and troubled for ever"

Mark 3:29 "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

Romans 2:7 "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath"

Psalms 9:5 "Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever."

Jude 1:7 "giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Psalms 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: "

Luke 16:9 "And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations."

II Peter 2:17 "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. "

Isaiah 33:14 "The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"

Jeremiah 20:11 "my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: their everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten."

Jude 1:11 "Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. "

Jeremiah 23:39 "Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten."

Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Romans 5:18 tells us that while through adam, the curse of sin and death plauge all of us; we all have the opportunity of salvation from that cursed sin and death through Christ.

Does that mean, then, that the text is merely telling us that we all have the opportunity to die in Adam? Nay, Paul is speaking matter of factly about how two different men brought about opposite results that affected the rest of humanity. Paul could have hardly been more clear.

Yes Adam brought the curse of sin and death upon creation for all men.
Much like if you put a bag of poisonous snakes into a room of people, eventually everyone gets bitten and dies from the poision. Likewise, everyone is 'bitten' by sin, and surfers the consequences of it's curse; being in a state of separation and damnation of God unless they repent and follow Him.

However, Jesus enters the room of snakes, (sin), and carries with Him an antedote to the poison. Unfortuantely, not all people in the room believe Him; and only a few of them trust Him and partake of the gift and offering of the antidote, that only He can give. Those who reject Him, still die and suffer the consequences of the untreated poison, aka unrepentant sin.

Nowwhere does Romans 5 force all people to partake of the cure of sin via Jesus Christ....it only explains that He makes available the cure for all. Many other scriptures as you have been shown, reveal to us that many within humankind reject the offer, reject the saviour, reject eternal salvation; preferring to remain eternally lost in their sins.

However, other scriptures make it abundantly clear that few find it; and few actually actualize that opportunity of salvation....far too many men however, reject it, and reject the eternal life in Christ that is offered to all.

Where does the Bible say that some will remain forever lost, and that some will NEVER find it?

I quoted you a dozen or so verses above; they are sufficient; we could do dozens more; but evidence isn't lacking; it's rather a matter of you choosing to believe the truth that the examples reveal to us or not.

UR is a pipe-dream that cannot exist and be compatible with biblical Christianity; it breaks too many scriptures that hold unrepentant sinners accountable for their rejection of the Lord.

I know of no Christian Universalist who denies that unrepentant sinners are held accountable for their rejection.

As long as a UR person believes that all humans will be saved; they believe that unrepentant sinners are not held accountable for their rejection; because there is no such thing as accepting or rejection Christ in UR....because everyone gets a free pass, regardless of what they do.

[David Taylor]

Yours is not the only viable interpretation of Scripture. Please do not mistake your interpretation of the Word of God with the Word of God itself.

In regards to the topic of UR, it is. I can stand firm on the scriptures, as they speak without need of interpretation or misinterpretation or reinterpretation to attempt to make them say something they do not.

The concept that unrepentant man spends eternity separated from God is the only viable interpretation of Scripture. Universal Reconciliationism, Annihilationism, and any other 'ism' that rejects that concept, is not a viable interpretation of Scripture; but a misrepresentation of Scripture.

Again, these scriptures speak on their own, without me making one insertion of personal opinion or interpretation pro-or-con along with them.

Readers one and all, what do these scriptures tell you regarding the future of the unrepentant, Christ-rejecting person?

Matt 25:41"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:And these shall go away into everlasting punishment"

Psalms 83:17 "Let them be confounded and troubled for ever"

Mark 3:29 "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

Romans 2:7 "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath"

Psalms 9:5 "Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever."

Jude 1:7 "giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Psalms 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: "

Luke 16:9 "And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations."

II Peter 2:17 "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. "

Isaiah 33:14 "The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"

Jeremiah 20:11 "my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: their everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten."

Jude 1:11 "Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. "

Jeremiah 23:39 "Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten."

Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Now, if you want to get your hands dirty with me and examine the relevant texts, then let's do. Let's see who is misreading the texts, ok? Let's start with the first verse you quoted, Matt. 25:46.

The Greek adjective aionios is used in different ways, and applied in different ways. It need not mean "forever", and when it does mean "forever", it need not apply in the narrow sense you are insisting on.
Likewise, "eternal punishment" need not refer to an unending punitive process, but to the end results of said process. What makes you think that the aionios is being applied to the noun kolasis in such a way that it is describing the punitive process as unending? Please give some thought to this. Knee-jerk reactions are not conducive to discussion.

You've fallen prey to one of the three great blunders here Tabor.
1) Never enter into a land war in Asia,
2) never throw in against a Scicilian when death is on the line, and
3) never get tricked by the UR/Annihilationists crowd into trying to pull out the greek word aion, aionios, and it's derivatives, and attempt to reinterpret them to say that they don't really mean eternal, everlasting, and forever, when being applied to the eternal destiny of the unrepentant wicked.

Why?

Because for every time the scriptures use aion, aionios, etc...to denote the eternal, everlasting, and forever future of the unrepentant wicked; there are twice as many scriptrures that use the same aion, aionios, etc....to denote the eternal, everlasting, and forever future of the redeemed and saved in Heaven with Christ.

If you're gonna try to use greek words to attempt to say the English translations of them are currupt and misleading, just to proove your UR viewpoint, you gotta be consistent, and admint that the redeemed, saved, faithful followers of CHrist too, will not spend an eternal, everlasting, forever duration with the Lord either.

When do we get cut off, and snuffed out? When does aion, and aionios end for the redeemed?

As you see, this trick is preposterous; not only because it is inconsistent and untendable when applied to the redeemed, but it also forces one to believe the English Bible translators were purposefully deceptive and manipulative of the text to attempt to write-out of the scriptures, the not of eternal torment.

Again, not the case whatsoever....and that's why most of the Earth's Christians have always adamantly rejected the teaching of UR as heretical.

[LightofTabor]

David Taylor,

Jesus as savior, is only the savior of those who are saved.

And of those who are yet to be saved. But tautologies aside, scripture declares that Jesus is the saviour of all men (1 Tim. 4:10).

Scripture tells us many times over, that a large portion of men reject God, and are eternally damned and lost in their sins, separated from Christ.

No need to repeat this assertion. I am quite clear on what your position is. Now that you've posted a list of verses that you think support this assertion, I was hoping to take a closer look at them with you. So far, I'm waiting for you to actually address the points and questions I raised concerning aionios and your reading of the first verse on your list, Matt. 25:41.

All are not finally delivered from sin and death.

How can death continue to have power, when death itself will be destroyed?

Only those who belong to Jesus Christ are delivered.

And this fact is perfectly compatible with the notion that all sinners will eventually belong to Jesus. See Colossians 1:20.

Yes Adam brought the curse of sin and death upon creation for all men.

And, just as assuredly, Christ reverses this curse for all men. You are essentially rendering v.20 as nonsense, sice you are claiming that the effects of Adam's sin outweigh the effects of the second Adam's obedience.

Nowwhere does Romans 5 force all people to partake of the cure of sin via Jesus Christ...

I never contended that Romans 5 teaches forced salvation. Indeed, the vision of all sinful descendants of Adam being made righteous by Christ is perfectly consistent with the notion that the gift of salvation must be received. FYI, the tense of the Greek word translated as 'receive' in v. 17 is used by Paul in the passive sense of receiving, and not in the active sense of seizing.

I quoted you a dozen or so verses above; they are sufficient; we could do dozens more; but evidence isn't lacking; it's rather a matter of you choosing to believe the truth that the examples reveal to us or not.

I believe the scriptures you posted; I simply don't agree with your understanding of them.

As long as a UR person believes that all humans will be saved; they believe that unrepentant sinners are not held accountable for their rejection; because there is no such thing as accepting or rejection Christ in UR....because everyone gets a free pass, regardless of what they do.

That is simply incorrect. All Christian Universalists I know, including myself, believe that man can accept or reject salvation. I don't deny freewill. I simply believe that all will eventually freely choose God, as a number of Scriptures have every appearance of teaching.

[LightofTabor]

David Taylor,

I can stand firm on the scriptures, as they speak without need of interpretation or misinterpretation or reinterpretation to attempt to make them say something they do not.

Scriptures require no interpretation? That is a bewildering claim. Anyone can claim that the scriptures obviously support their beliefs. You can assert that the Bible indisputably teaches eternal torment, just as an Annihilationist can assert that the Bible indisputably teaches annihilation, just as a Universalist can assert the Bible indisputably teaches universal salvation. But assertions are no substitute for a reasoned argument. Your assertion carries no weight; demonstrate that your reading is the correct one.

3) never get tricked by the UR/Annihilationists crowd into trying to pull out the greek word aion, aionios, and it's derivatives, and attempt to reinterpret them to say that they don't really mean eternal, everlasting, and forever, when being applied to the eternal destiny of the unrepentant wicked.

I must ask you to read my posts more carefully. I explicitly affirmed that aionios can mean 'eternal', and I correctly noted that it can also denote a period of time, and I rightly noted that even when it means "eternal", it can be applied in a different manner than you are insisting on. Here again is what I noted. Please address it this time around.


The Greek adjective aionios is used in different ways, and applied in different ways. It need not mean "forever", and when it does mean "forever", it need not apply in the narrow sense you are insisting on. For instance, Hebrews 9:12 speaks of our eternal redemption, but we can hardly understand this to mean that the redeeming process is unending. Rather, we know that it is the end result of said process that lasts forever. Likewise, "eternal punishment" need not refer to an unending punitive process, but to the end results of said process. What makes you think that the aionios is being applied to the noun kolasis in such a way that it is describing the punitive process as unending? Please give some thought to this. Knee-jerk reactions are not conducive to discussion.

If you're gonna try to use greek words to attempt to say the English translations of them are currupt and misleading, just to proove your UR viewpoint, you gotta be consistent, and admint that the redeemed, saved, faithful followers of CHrist too, will not spend an eternal, everlasting, forever duration with the Lord either.

This fallacious line of reasoning has been refuted time and time again. If aionios zoe means "life in the age to come", this would carry no implications on the duration of our existence. There's no reason to suppose that those who enjoy life in the age to come will not live forever.

As you see, this trick is preposterous; not only because it is inconsistent and untendable when applied to the redeemed, but it also forces one to believe the English Bible translators were purposefully deceptive and manipulative of the text to attempt to write-out of the scriptures, the not of eternal torment.

I do not contend for any such conspiracy theory.

[David Taylor]

And I do not contend with advancing topics that run contradictory to Mainstream Christianity or the views of this board. UR has been discussed sufficiently in this thread, and it is a viewpoint that has always stood against Christianity, and the core tenants of scripture as held by most all Christians since the time Jesus Himself walked the earth, and explained firsthand that some people would not be saved, but would go into everlasting punishement at the return of Christ and the final judgment.

Six pages of discussion on this is plenty. You've had enough say, back and forth; and it's enough. Not gonna keep getting baited into giving more and more replies, and more and more explanations; when you just want to use that to continue advancing this topic anyway. There's no fruit in that endless continuation. Any reader who is interested in this topic, I advise you to re-read the scripture verses given throughout this thread, and let them and not persuasive opinions from the writers, lead you to the proper sound understanding, as has likewised happened to millions of Christians over the ages as they've considered what the scriptures say about eternal torment, judgment, and the destiny of the unrepentant wicked.

You're welcomed to continue posting here Tabor, but find other topics to discuss with folks; this topic of Universal Reconciliation has run it's course, and this Bible discussion forum isn't going to become a platform for you to continue to advance this viewpoint. Time to move on to other topics, mahap less intent in division would be a wise direction.