Universal Reconciliation

[LightofTabor]

Mailman,

Some Christian Universalists believe all are currently saved, whereas most seem to think that all will eventually be saved. I myself fall in the latter camp. What's your take on Romans 5:18?

I was once in a conversation with someone who used Romans 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5:18 and Colossians 1:22 to teach that through the death and resurrection of Christ ALL men are AUTOMATICALLY reconciled. He even mentioned "dual justification." He said, "Christ justified ALL mankind automatically through His death and resurrection (phase 1), so that through faith one might be justified (phase 2) to God." Of course I disagree. I've heard the teaching that everyone will eventually be saved (which I also disagree with), but he teaches that ALL MANKIND was automatically saved through the death and resurrection of Christ (at least initially) and this gets you in the door to be eternally saved based on your works. When I disagreed with him, he became belligerent with me and even claimed that ONLY his church (the Orthodox church) is the true Church, the Body of Christ which can trace it's roots all the way back to Pentecost. Are there different types of Universal Reconciliation being taught? All will everntually be saved? All were automatically saved?

[David Taylor]

Any embracing of UR, whether 'current' or 'eventual', nullifies and renders unnecessary and irrelevant Christ's death on the cross.

If all are saved(whether current or eventual), there is no need for a Saviour.
If all are saved(whether current or eventual), then sin isn't a negative consequence effecting anyone's standing before God.
If all are saved(whether current or eventual), then scripture is broken and unreliable; for many places it states that there are some who shall never repent.
If all are saved(whether current or eventual), then repentance itself is also rendered unnecessary, yet scripture is repleat with calls to repentance.

Romans 5:18
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

The problem with attempting to apply this to UR, is that while the free gift is made available to all men through Jesus Christ; scripture also tells us that many refuse and do not participate in in, and reject it.

[guestman]

Mailman,

Some Christian Universalists believe all are currently saved, whereas most seem to think that all will eventually be saved. I myself fall in the latter camp. What's your take on Romans 5:18?

According to the King James Bible (and a whole host of other Bibles), it reads at Romans 5:18: "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." At Titus 2:11, the King James Bible reads: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." These Scriptures seems to give the impression that universal salvation is actually true.

However, due to the misrendering of the Greek word pas in these Scriptures, it has many thinking that "all men" will gain everlasting life eventually. The Greek word pas means "all, any, every, the whole"(Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, G3956) But, it also means "every kind or variety".(Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, London, 1962, Vol. I, p. 46) Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament says also "any and every, of every kind".(Pg 491)

Thus, according to a modern English Bible translation, Romans 5:18 reads: "So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts (Greek pas) was condemnation, likewise also through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts (Greek pas) is a declaring of them righteous for life."(New World Translation) Titus 2:11 reads: "For the undeserved kindness of God which brings salvation to all sorts of men (Greek pas) has been manifested."(New World Translation)

Does this harmonize with the rest of the Bible ? Yes. Consider Acts 10:34, 35, whereby Peter tells Cornelius: "For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him." Who are the only ones acceptable to God ? "All men" or "all sorts of men" ? Are "all men" fearing God and working righteousness ? No. But "all sorts of men", men and women from around the world are fearing the "only true God", Jehovah.(John 17:3)

Furthermore, at Revelation 7:9, 10, it says that "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” Thence, not "all men" gain salvation but only those who make peace with God by becoming morally and spiritually clean, being "dressed in white robes", waving "palm branches", a symbol of peace.

On the other hand, the apostle Paul wrote that "those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength."(2 Thess 1:8, 9) Jesus further said: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."(Matt 7:13, 14)

The wise course is to use an accurate Bible, rather than one that misleads individuals, just as using an accurate map when traveling through a country or large city. Otherwise, a person can be assured to become lost.

[LightofTabor]

What about Romans 5:12? Who is the referrent of all (pas)? All types of men, or all men who have sinned?

According to the King James Bible (and a whole host of other Bibles), it reads at Romans 5:18: "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." At Titus 2:11, the King James Bible reads: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." These Scriptures seems to give the impression that universal salvation is actually true.

However, due to the misrendering of the Greek word pas in these Scriptures, it has many thinking that "all men" will gain everlasting life eventually. The Greek word pas means "all, any, every, the whole"(Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, G3956) But, it also means "every kind or variety".(Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, London, 1962, Vol. I, p. 46) Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament says also "any and every, of every kind".(Pg 491)

Thus, according to a modern English Bible translation, Romans 5:18 reads: "So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts (Greek pas) was condemnation, likewise also through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts (Greek pas) is a declaring of them righteous for life."(New World Translation) Titus 2:11 reads: "For the undeserved kindness of God which brings salvation to all sorts of men (Greek pas) has been manifested."(New World Translation)

Does this harmonize with the rest of the Bible ? Yes. Consider Acts 10:34, 35, whereby Peter tells Cornelius: "For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him." Who are the only ones acceptable to God ? "All men" or "all sorts of men" ? Are "all men" fearing God and working righteousness ? No. But "all sorts of men", men and women from around the world are fearing the "only true God", Jehovah.(John 17:3)

Furthermore, at Revelation 7:9, 10, it says that "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” Thence, not "all men" gain salvation but only those who make peace with God by becoming morally and spiritually clean, being "dressed in white robes", waving "palm branches", a symbol of peace.

On the other hand, the apostle Paul wrote that "those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength."(2 Thess 1:8, 9) Jesus further said: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."(Matt 7:13, 14)

The wise course is to use an accurate Bible, rather than one that misleads individuals, just as using an accurate map when traveling through a country or large city. Otherwise, a person can be assured to become lost.

[LightofTabor]

DT, you have misunderstood what Christian Universalism is.

It is the belief that all will be saved through Christ alone. It is the belief that Christ is the saviour of all men. It does not hold that there is no need for a saviour.

As for Romans 5:18, it says that all who are condemned/die in Adam will be made righteous/alive in Christ. This would certainly imply that all will receive the gift of eternal life. As such, it is compatible with the Biblical truth that many do not receive Christ in this life, so long as the assumption is not made that these people will never receive Christ.

Any embracing of UR, whether 'current' or 'eventual', nullifies and renders unnecessary and irrelevant Christ's death on the cross.

If all are saved(whether current or eventual), there is no need for a Saviour.
If all are saved(whether current or eventual), then sin isn't a negative consequence effecting anyone's standing before God.
If all are saved(whether current or eventual), then scripture is broken and unreliable; for many places it states that there are some who shall never repent.
If all are saved(whether current or eventual), then repentance itself is also rendered unnecessary, yet scripture is repleat with calls to repentance.

Romans 5:18
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

The problem with attempting to apply this to UR, is that while the free gift is made available to all men through Jesus Christ; scripture also tells us that many refuse and do not participate in in, and reject it.

[the rookie]

Paul is clear that the free gift that has come upon all has not been received by all. He states that in so many places in Romans that it is difficult to list all of the references, but Romans ch. 1-2, and ch. 10, would be a great place to start.

[LightofTabor]

Even Paul had not received the free gift until his vision on the road to Damascus. The point here is that those who reject now need not always reject. Romans 5:18 has every appearance of saying that all will eventually receive.

Paul is clear that the free gift that has come upon all has not been received by all. He states that in so many places in Romans that it is difficult to list all of the references, but Romans ch. 1-2, and ch. 10, would be a great place to start.

[the rookie]

The second death after the Great White Throne judgments testifies otherwise. Same with the angelic warnings of Rev. 14 to that generation. Same with the urgent pleading of the writer of the book of Hebrews in Heb. 10. Same with the Peter's words throughout 2 Peter, also reiterated by Jude.

[LightofTabor]

The second death after the Great White Throne judgments testifies otherwise. Same with the angelic warnings of Rev. 14 to that generation. Same with the urgent pleading of the writer of the book of Hebrews in Heb. 10. Same with the Peter's words throughout 2 Peter, also reiterated by Jude.

I do not agree that any of these texts suggest what you say they suggest. But let us get our hands dirty here, shall we? Let's start with the second death. Rev. 20:14 tells us that the second death is the "death of death", agreed? That is, it is the lake of fire in which death itself will be destroyed, yes?

[the rookie]

Yes. The wicked who reject Christ will have eternity to endure the weight of the consequences of that rejection.

[LightofTabor]

Ok, so you agree that the second death involves the destruction of death. Good.

Isn't the second death a good thing then? Isn't the destruction of death a good thing?

Yes. The wicked who reject Christ will have eternity to endure the weight of the consequences of that rejection.

[the rookie]

For those who lived according to Jesus' terms, absolutely.

[LightofTabor]

Isn't it through the death and resurrection of Christ that death is destroyed?

[the rookie]

I'm a huge proponent of the Christus Victor view of the atonement, while holding to a Penal Substitutionary view as well. The cross and the resurrection is where death was defeated; as one of two enemies of Jesus it will be destroyed, ultimately and totally at the end of the age.

[LightofTabor]

You and I probably have similar views of the atonement, then.

See 1 Cor. 15:24, 26 and 2 Tim. 1:10. The death and resurrection of Christ destroys death!

I'm a huge proponent of the Christus Victor view of the atonement, while holding to a Penal Substitutionary view as well. The cross and the resurrection is where death was defeated; as one of two enemies of Jesus it will be destroyed, ultimately and totally at the end of the age.