By what name are we saved...Jehovah or Jesus?

[Gadgeteer]

I am not going to veer off the subject of salvation and delve into the trinity in this post. There is a need to understand who the real provider of everlasting salvation is and through whom it comes. The apostle Paul wrote that "there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him."(1 Cor 8:6) Thus, from "God the Father" comes forth all things, being the Grand Creator (Isa 42:5) and source of salvation and life, for Psalms 36:5, 9 says: "O Jehovah, your loving-kindness is in the heavens;.....For with you is the source of life."

It is through Jesus Christ, as "Jehovah's...anointed one" (Ps 2:2) or Messiah, that the hope of everlasting life exists. Colossians 1:16 says of Jesus that “through him God created everything in heaven and on earth.”—Today’s English Version (TEV). As an example of the word "through", the apostle Paul told the Colossians: "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will."(Col 1:1)

Or concerning the birth of Jesus, Matthew wrote that "all this actually came about for that to be fulfilled which was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet."(Matt 1:22) Jehovah spoke through the prophet Isaiah, just as he spoke through Jesus Christ. Paul says that "God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things."(Heb 1:1, 2)

For a person to go through a door, for instance, does not make them the door. Hence, Jehovah God used his "only-begotten Son", Jesus Christ (John 3:16), as the "door" to go through in order to create all life and to provide salvation to all who are ' searching for Jehovah."(Isa 55:6) That is also why Jesus is spoken of as "the chief cornerstone" of God's building.(Matt 21:42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17) Through him hinges all hope of everlasting life for "meek" ones.

Jesus is Jehovah.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev1:8.

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." Rev22:12-16

The Alpha and Omega is Jehovah. The Alpha and Omega is Jesus.

As a side note, two of most recent posts were deleted. Perhaps, you might PM the moderator as to why.

Whose posts were deleted, yours?

[guestman]

Jesus is Jehovah.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev1:8.

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." Rev22:12-16

The Alpha and Omega is Jehovah. The Alpha and Omega is Jesus.Whose posts were deleted, yours?

I will take this up on the trinity post rather than hijack this one. And yes, it was my posts.

[guestman]

Jesus is Jehovah.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev1:8.

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." Rev22:12-16

The Alpha and Omega is Jehovah. The Alpha and Omega is Jesus.Whose posts were deleted, yours?

You made the statement that "Jesus is Jehovah", because of the belief in the trinity. Let's see if this holds up in the Bible. Following his baptism, Jesus went to a synagogue of the Jews in Nazareth, whereby Luke's account reads that "he stood up to read. So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written (at Isaiah 61:1, 2): “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.” With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant and sat down."(Luke 4:16-20)

How can Jesus be Jehovah when he said that "Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor" ? Did Jesus anoint himself, and what is "Jehovah's spirit" that was upon him ? Jesus came to the earth to do, not his own will, but, in his own words, "of him that sent me."(John 4:34) He further said in prayer to his Father hours before his death: "Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you....This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do."(John 17:1, 3, 4)

How could Jesus be Jehovah and yet call his Father "the only true God", separating himself by saying that he was "sent forth" by "you" or Jehovah God ? The answer is obvious to sincere individuals, that Jesus is not Jehovah, but was "sent forth" by him. The ability to reason effectively is often beyond the reach of individuals determined to maintain the concept of the trinity, for it has no firm support in the Bible, but these go "out on a ledge", stretching Scripture to say it means this or that with regard to Jesus being God when in fact it does not.

For example, John 8:58. So many have attempted to use this Scripture as evidence that Jesus is God because of the rendering in the King James Bible of where Jesus is supposed to have said "I am" (Greek e·go´ ei·mi´) and then connect it with Exodus 3:14, whereby God is said to have explained his name as meaning "I AM".

Neither at John 8:58 did Jesus say "I am" nor at Exodus 3:14 did God explain the meaning of his name Jehovah as "I AM". The attempt to connect Exodus 3:14 with John 8:58 cannot be sustained because the expression in Exodus 3:14 is different from the expression in John 8:58. (Note: The blind man at John 9 also used the Greek words e·go´ ei·mi´, but the King James Bible adds the word "he" to them, with him saying "I am he". John 9:9)

At John 8:57, the Jews asked Jesus: "You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?" What were the Jews asking Jesus ? Who he was or how old he was ? Any person who is without bias, can readily see that the Jews were wondering how Jesus could have seen Abraham, being that he was "not yet fifty years old". Jesus simply replied: "Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."(John 8:58) That this is the correct reading, here are the translations of five ancient manuscripts, written about a thousand years before the King James Bible was published in 1611.

(1) "before Abraham was, I have been” (Fourth/Fifth century -Syriac-Edition:A Translation of the Four Gospels from the Syriac of the Sinaitic Palimpsest, by Agnes Smith Lewis, London, 1894),
(2) “before ever Abraham, came to be, I was" (Fifth Century, Curetonian Syriac-Edition:The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, by F.Crawford Burkitt, Vol. 1, Cambridge, England, 1904),
(3) "before Abraham existed, I was" (Fifth century, Syriac Pesh itta-Edition:The Syriac New Testament Translated into English from the Pesh itto Version, by James Murdock, seventh ed., Boston and London, 1896),
(4) "before Abraham came to be, I was" (Fifth century, Georgian-Edition:“The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John,” by Robert P. Blake and Maurice Brière, published in Patrologia Orientalis, Vol. XXVI, fascicle 4, Paris, 1950),
(5) "before Abraham was born, I was"(Sixth century, Ethiopic-Edition:Novum Testamentum . . .Æthiopice (The New Testament . . . in Ethiopic), by Thomas Pell Platt, revised by F. Praetorius, Leipzig, 1899).

And of the name Jehovah, an accurate meaning of his name is "I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” (Ex 3:14, New World Translation) The online interlinear Scripture4all reads: "I shall become who I am becoming." Leeser's translation reads: "I Will Be That I Will Be", while Rotherham reads: "I Will Become whatsoever I will please." The root word of the name Jehovah is the Hebrew verb ha·wah´ (become); meaning “He Causes to Become”. In the Greek Septuagint, it reads: E·go´ ei·mi ho on, “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One”; Latin, e´go sum qui sum, “I am Who I am.”

[Nihil Obstat]

guestman, while I think you've made some good scholarly observations, would you mind sharing your thoughts on a post that I made to another JW not to long ago here about how the NT calls Jesus "God"? (It's very short and to the point.) - Ben

[Gadgeteer]

You made the statement that "Jesus is Jehovah", because of the belief in the trinity.

Hi, "Guestman".

No, I made the statement because Revelation addresses both Jehovah and Jesus as "The Alpha and Omega". And because Jesus clearly called Himself "God" (just as the Jews there at the time, who wanted to kill Him for blasphemously calling Himself "God"); Jesus accepted worship (which means He considered Himself "God" [b]or He committed serious blasphemy), and the rest of Scripture equates Him to God.

See John14:9.

Let's see if this holds up in the Bible. Following his baptism, Jesus went to a synagogue of the Jews in Nazareth, whereby Luke's account reads that "he stood up to read. So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written (at Isaiah 61:1, 2): “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.” With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant and sat down."(Luke 4:16-20)

How can Jesus be Jehovah when he said that "Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor" ?

Both the Father and the Son are considered "God", both are considered "Jehovah". As we noted earlier, GOD raised Jesus from the dead; but Jesus said He would raise Himself.

Did Jesus anoint himself, and what is "Jehovah's spirit" that was upon him ? Jesus came to the earth to do, not his own will, but, in his own words, "of him that sent me."(John 4:34) He further said in prayer to his Father hours before his death: "Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you....This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do."(John 17:1, 3, 4)

There's overlap in office. That is why "seeing Jesus" is the same as "seeing the Father".

Have you ever explained Hebrews1:8, where the Father says to the Son, "Thy thrown OH GOD is forever and ever"?

How could Jesus be Jehovah and yet call his Father "the only true God", separating himself by saying that he was "sent forth" by "you" or Jehovah God ? The answer is obvious to sincere individuals, that Jesus is not Jehovah, but was "sent forth" by him.

Then please explain who is the Alpha and Omega. Are there two of 'em?

The ability to reason effectively is often beyond the reach of individuals determined to maintain the concept of the trinity, for it has no firm support in the Bible,

Okay, please contrast two things you said in this post:
1. You made the statement that "Jesus is Jehovah", because of the belief in the trinity.
2. the concept of the trinity ...has no firm support in the Bible

#1 accuses me of "bias" and "prejudice", but then in #2 you make a statement from your position that seems to come from a "predisposition". See the irony?

And I do find "firm support in the Bible" for the concept of a tri-unity, because Jesus is established to be God. In essence, the same as Jehovah.

but these go "out on a ledge", stretching Scripture to say it means this or that with regard to Jesus being God when in fact it does not.

That is the point of the discussions. And if we don't come to agreement, it is my intent that both of us have fun in the process. :-)

For example, John 8:58. So many have attempted to use this Scripture as evidence that Jesus is God because of the rendering in the King James Bible of where Jesus is supposed to have said "I am" (Greek e·go´ ei·mi´) and then connect it with Exodus 3:14, whereby God is said to have explained his name as meaning "I AM".

Neither at John 8:58 did Jesus say "I am" nor at Exodus 3:14 did God explain the meaning of his name Jehovah as "I AM". The attempt to connect Exodus 3:14 with John 8:58 cannot be sustained because the expression in Exodus 3:14 is different from the expression in John 8:58. (Note: The blind man at John 9 also used the Greek words e·go´ ei·mi´, but the King James Bible adds the word "he" to them, with him saying "I am he". John 9:9)

At John 8:57, the Jews asked Jesus: "You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?" What were the Jews asking Jesus ? Who he was or how old he was ? Any person who is without bias, can readily see that the Jews were wondering how Jesus could have seen Abraham, being that he was "not yet fifty years old". Jesus simply replied: "Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."(John 8:58) That this is the correct reading, here are the translations of five ancient manuscripts, written about a thousand years before the King James Bible was published in 1611.

(1) "before Abraham was, I have been” (Fourth/Fifth century -Syriac-Edition:A Translation of the Four Gospels from the Syriac of the Sinaitic Palimpsest, by Agnes Smith Lewis, London, 1894),
(2) “before ever Abraham, came to be, I was" (Fifth Century, Curetonian Syriac-Edition:The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, by F.Crawford Burkitt, Vol. 1, Cambridge, England, 1904),
(3) "before Abraham existed, I was" (Fifth century, Syriac Pesh itta-Edition:The Syriac New Testament Translated into English from the Pesh itto Version, by James Murdock, seventh ed., Boston and London, 1896),
(4) "before Abraham came to be, I was" (Fifth century, Georgian-Edition:“The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John,” by Robert P. Blake and Maurice Brière, published in Patrologia Orientalis, Vol. XXVI, fascicle 4, Paris, 1950),
(5) "before Abraham was born, I was"(Sixth century, Ethiopic-Edition:Novum Testamentum . . .Æthiopice (The New Testament . . . in Ethiopic), by Thomas Pell Platt, revised by F. Praetorius, Leipzig, 1899).

This whole argument is really ruined by the Jews there in audience for Jesus' words. The Jews were inflamed to KILL Jesus for calling Himself "GOD".

This is "the testimony of the witnesses", and the people who heard Jesus' words, clearly perceived that He was calling Himself "GOD". That invalidates your argument.

And of the name Jehovah, an accurate meaning of his name is "I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” (Ex 3:14, New World Translation) The online interlinear Scripture4all reads: "I shall become who I am becoming." Leeser's translation reads: "I Will Be That I Will Be", while Rotherham reads: "I Will Become whatsoever I will please." The root word of the name Jehovah is the Hebrew verb ha·wah´ (become); meaning “He Causes to Become”. In the Greek Septuagint, it reads: E·go´ ei·mi ho on, “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One”; Latin, e´go sum qui sum, “I am Who I am.”

In both John8:58-59, and Jn10:29-33, Jesus' audience very plainly understood Jesus to be calling Himself "GOD". They were there, and that's what they heard.

So in contradiction to your perception that "the concept of trinity has no firm support in the Bible", clearly I find considerable support.

I look forward to your thoughts, and hope you're having an excellent weekend!
:-)

[guestman]

Only Jehovah God calls himself "the Alpha and Omega" at Revelation 1:8 and 22:13. At Revelation 1:8, it says: "I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” Jehovah God identifies himself as the one speaking. However, at Revelation 22:13, this is understood as Jehovah speaking.

Just because Jesus is speaking at Revelation 22:16 does not mean that he is the one speaking at verses 12-15. If you will note that at Revelation 22:8-11, the apostle John is seen with an angel. However, at verses 12-15, there is a change in speakers. Having already identified himself as "the Alpha and Omega" at Revelation 1:8, it can rightly be concluded that Jehovah is speaking.

Is there a parallel whereby the speakers must be discerned ? Yes. Just read the Song of Solomon, for unless a person reads very carefully, it is difficult to figure out whether the Shulammite maiden is speaking or her shepherd boy. There are no expressions such as "she said" or "he said" throughout the entire book. And at the end, without any word as to who is speaking, suddenly her brothers begins.(Song of Solomon 8:8, 9) And then again, without introducing herself, the Shulammite maiden begins her thoughts in verse 10, but who is the one speaking at the last verse, verse 14 ?

And of Jesus calling himself "God", did he ? Where is that found in the Bible ? And where did Jesus accept worship ? By the way, John 14:9 is not showing Jesus as being called God nor of accepting worship. Jesus said that "Jehovah's spirit is upon me" at Luke 4:18 and yet you say that he is Jehovah. To be led to this line of reasoning borders on insanity or perhaps more truthfully prejudicial bias. Jesus called this "wicked reasoning" at Matthew 15:19, the unwillingness to draw a proper conclusion despite the evidence to the contrary.

When the religious leaders saw Jesus perform a miracle of healing a demon-possessed man, evidence beyond question that God's spirit accomplished this, and still attributed this to Beelzebub (more accurately Satan), Jesus scathingly condemned them to the point that these had sinned against the holy spirit.(Matt 12:22-32) The evidence was unmistakable, yet cast aside as if meaningless.

Have I ever examined Hebrew 1:8 ? Yes, quite a bit. The preceding verses say that God is speaking, not that he is being addressed; and the following verse uses the expression “God, thy (or your) God,” showing that the one addressed is not the Most High God but is a worshiper of that God. Hebrews 1:8 quotes from Psalm 45:6, and in the Revised Standard Version, reads “Your divine throne.” (New English Bible says, “Your throne is like God’s throne.” JP [The Holy Scriptures According to the Masoretic Text, verse 7]: “Thy throne given of God.”)

In addition, if you had looked more closely, at Hebrew 1:9, the one being addressed is noted as this: "You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.” How can Jesus be God and yet it be said "that is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners" ? Does God have a God ?

At Revelation 3:12, Jesus himself says: "The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine." Again, it proves that most do not examine the Bible carefully, without bias, but are prejudicial before they ever open it, struggling to prop up various doctrines that are not found in the Bible.

At John 5:18, the Jews sought to kill Jesus. Why ? Because "not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God." The Scripture did not say that Jesus was God but that the Jews felt that he was "making himself equal to God".

How could Jesus be "breaking the Sabbath" and be equal to God simply because he was "calling God his own Father" ? Because of the Jews wicked reasoning, they accused Jesus both of "breaking the Sabbath" and "making himself equal to God." Hence, if Jesus is God, then he also broke his own law, the Sabbath according to the Jews. Is this true ? If not, then neither is Jesus God or equal to him.

At John 10:33, the Greek word theon (or theos) is not accompanied by a definite article. Thus, the Jews said, in their minds, that Jesus "although being a man, make yourself a god." To show that this is what they meant, Jesus quotes from Psalms 82:6, in which the wicked judges of Israel were considered as being "gods", not "Gods".

[Diggindeeper]

Guestman, are you being deliberately deceitful by saying this, in your first sentence? You said:

Only Jehovah God calls himself "the Alpha and Omega" at Revelation 1:8 and 22:13. At Revelation 1:8, it says: "I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” Jehovah God identifies himself as the one speaking.

But I looked closely in my study Bible, John (in verse #10 &11) REPEATS what he said in verse #8 and there...it is written in RED! The words of Christ Jesus are in red in my Bible. In verses #10 and 11 and on down, we see exactly what John says as he repeats what he had said in verse #8. He explained:

Rev. 1:10-18
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


So, clearly and plainly and absolutely...that was Christ Jesus that said that to John!! Without any doubt...it WAS Jesus.

[A Seeker]

Well isn't this fun. I'll say these things for JW's. They give you a good argument, they know they're bibles, they care enough to try to change minds, they seldom attack the postER (only the post) and they don't quit. I admire them greatly, although I cannot agree with all the theology or the way the church is run.

I'm going to ask a really naive question.

When we ask "by what name are we saved" what do we actually mean? I mean its a bit Christianese. I know I'm not "down with the lingo" so I might be missing something here.

Are we saved by a "name"? I don't believe so. A name is simple a collection of sounds we learn to associate with an entity. If someone's leg had been saved by me, it's been saved by me. Not by "Robert" "Dr Smith" or "a Seeker". I suspect that the name is not a salvation issue. I can't believe our salvation is contigent on whether we use a "ya" sound or a "ge" sound at the front of Jehovah. He knows who we mean even if we don't know what to call him.

In which case is the question really "who are we saved by, God or Jesus?" Or Jehovah or Jesus if you prefer.

[guestman]

Guestman, are you being deliberately deceitful by saying this, in your first sentence? You said:


But I looked closely in my study Bible, John (in verse #10 &11) REPEATS what he said in verse #8 and there...it is written in RED! The words of Christ Jesus are in red in my Bible. In verses #10 and 11 and on down, we see exactly what John says as he repeats what he had said in verse #8. He explained:

Rev. 1:10-18
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


So, clearly and plainly and absolutely...that was Christ Jesus that said that to John!! Without any doubt...it WAS Jesus.

Printing words in red does not mean that these are Jesus words. Did the writers of the Gospels write Jesus words in red ? To the contrary, these just wrote down what God inspired them to write, not coloring any of the words. It is the publishers that red lettered the words they felt Jesus said. However, it is not just Jesus words that count, but Jesus himself said that " It is written (at Deut 8:3), ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth."

Most Bibles do not print what they feel Jesus words are in red. I have several Bibles, Catholic Douay, King James Bible, Holy Bible - Easy to Read Version, The Bible in Living English and New World Translation, in which none of these are red-lettered. It is the opinion of the publisher and not by fact that any Bible red-letters Revelation 22:12, 13.

The issue at hand is that Jesus is not Jehovah, but is, as he himself said, the "only-begotten Son of God"(John 3:16,18) and of which the apostles concur, for upon Saul's conversion to Christianity, "immediately in the synagogues he began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God."(Acts 9:20) Years later, in his second letter to the Corinthians, now the apostle Paul told them: "For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you through us, that is through me and Silvanus and Timothy, did not become Yes and yet No, but Yes has become Yes in his case."(2 Cor 1:19)

Furthermore, in writing to the Hebrews, Paul said that "Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us."(Heb 9:24) How can Jesus be God and yet "appear before the person of God" ?

When Satan tempted Jesus, Satan twice said to Jesus: "If you are a son of God."(Matt 4:3, 6) If Jesus was God, then why call him "a son of God" ? Before Satan's defection in the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:2-5), he had perhaps been with Jesus billions of years in the spirit realm and knew exactly who Jesus was, for both at this time were "sons of God."

And when Jesus was casting out demons, "demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.” But, rebuking them, he would not permit them to speak, because they knew him to be the Christ.(Luke 4:41) The demons were well aware that Jesus was not God, but "the Son of God". These too, had lived with Jesus in the spirit realm and knew exactly who he was. On another occasion, a demon told Jesus: "What have we to do with you, Jesus you Naz·a·rene´? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.”(Mark 1:24)

The clear differentiation between God and Jesus, Paul established in his first letter to the Corinthians, saying: "For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him."( 1 Cor 8:5, 6)

[karenoka27]

By what name are we saved?

John 14:6- Jesus saith unto him, "I Am the Way, The Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Me."

[Bandit]

Well isn't this fun. ...

I'm going to ask a really naive question.

When we ask "by what name are we saved" what do we actually mean? I mean its a bit Christianese. I know I'm not "down with the lingo" so I might be missing something here.

Are we saved by a "name"? I don't believe so. ...

In which case is the question really "who are we saved by, God or Jesus?" Or Jehovah or Jesus if you prefer.

Hello A Seeker,

For someone who claims to be a Christian, you seem to not know what Christianity is really about. God and God alone saves. So for Jesus to be the Savior is really saying something important. What it says, is something every "Christian" should already know. (Big hint here.)

[David Taylor]

By what name are we saved...Jehovah or Jesus?

Since the NT and OT confirm that Jesus is YHWH, the question is either answered with a singular 'yes'; or it is a moot question.

You (through the teachings you've chosen to embrace via the WTBTS) attempt to diminish Jesus from being YHWH, which is a completely contradictory to what the Scriptures themselves tell us.

If Jesus is not YHWH, then the NT should be discarded as false and unreliable.

[guestman]

Is Jesus position diminished by providing Scriptural evidence that Jesus is not Jehovah ? Not a bit. When Jesus was on the torture stake, just before he died, he cried out: "“E´li, E´li, la´ma sa·bach·tha´ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matt 27:46) Could Jesus be God and yet cry out to God, asking why he forsook him ?

Not long after Jesus baptism, Jesus went to synagogue, whereby the "scroll of Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written (at Isaiah 61:1, 2): "Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.” Luke 4:17-19) How could Jesus be Jehovah and yet say "Jehovah's spirit is upon me" ? How could Jesus be Jehovah and yet say that Jehovah "anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind" ?

How could the apostle Paul explain to the Corinthian congregation, that "even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him" and yet Jehovah be Jesus, when he makes a clear demarcation between the two ?(1 Cor 8:5, 6)

If Jesus is God, then why did "an unclean spirit" or demon, who had lived with Jesus in the spirit realm say to him: "What have we to do with you, Jesus you Naz·a·rene´? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God" ?(Mark 1:24) Why did the demon not call him God instead of the "Holy One of God" ? This demon knew more than the churches of Christendom does down to this day, for he was well aware that Jesus was not God, but his "Holy One".

The ability to reason effectively is seemingly beyond the grasp of most, to be able to "tie the pieces together". The Greek verb sy·ni´e·mi, which literally means "to mentally put the pieces together" and of which Jesus used 6 times at Matthew 13 concerning "the mysteries of the kingdom", is out of reach for most. The Bible is very clear as to who Jesus is, and of which Jesus himself said that he was "the only-begotten Son of God".(John 3:16, 18) Does most look into what the "begotten" means ? No.

If they were to accept it's firm meaning, this would undermine their belief in the trinity, for it means: "father: to be the father of a child".(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) Thus, Jesus was begotten (Greek monogenes) or was fathered, and that is why the apostle Paul wrote: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort."( 2 Cor 1:3) But do most want to know what the Bible really teaches ? Not at all, or otherwise they would consider all the evidence and not what the churches have been throwing out for centuries without question.

[Diggindeeper]

Somewhere on this board someone answered all this...he said:

If you remove a cup of water from the ocean, the ocean is still the ocean. Think about that....

The ocean is not something separate. Its the same as in the cup. Neither is it less than or more than, but the same.

The church is not throwing out any evidence at all. But other groups have tried to change the evidence to fit their theology.

[Nihil Obstat]

Is Jesus position diminished by providing Scriptural evidence that Jesus is not Jehovah ? Not a bit. When Jesus was on the torture stake, just before he died, he cried out: "“E´li, E´li, la´ma sa·bach·tha´ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matt 27:46) Could Jesus be God and yet cry out to God, asking why he forsook him ?

Not long after Jesus baptism, Jesus went to synagogue, whereby the "scroll of Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written (at Isaiah 61:1, 2): "Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.” Luke 4:17-19) How could Jesus be Jehovah and yet say "Jehovah's spirit is upon me" ? How could Jesus be Jehovah and yet say that Jehovah "anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind" ?

How could the apostle Paul explain to the Corinthian congregation, that "even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him" and yet Jehovah be Jesus, when he makes a clear demarcation between the two ?(1 Cor 8:5, 6)

If Jesus is God, then why did "an unclean spirit" or demon, who had lived with Jesus in the spirit realm say to him: "What have we to do with you, Jesus you Naz·a·rene´? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God" ?(Mark 1:24) Why did the demon not call him God instead of the "Holy One of God" ? This demon knew more than the churches of Christendom does down to this day, for he was well aware that Jesus was not God, but his "Holy One".

The ability to reason effectively is seemingly beyond the grasp of most, to be able to "tie the pieces together". The Greek verb sy·ni´e·mi, which literally means "to mentally put the pieces together" and of which Jesus used 6 times at Matthew 13 concerning "the mysteries of the kingdom", is out of reach for most. The Bible is very clear as to who Jesus is, and of which Jesus himself said that he was "the only-begotten Son of God".(John 3:16, 18) Does most look into what the "begotten" means ? No.

If they were to accept it's firm meaning, this would undermine their belief in the trinity, for it means: "father: to be the father of a child".(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) Thus, Jesus was begotten (Greek monogenes) or was fathered, and that is why the apostle Paul wrote: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort."( 2 Cor 1:3) But do most want to know what the Bible really teaches ? Not at all, or otherwise they would consider all the evidence and not what the churches have been throwing out for centuries without question.

I agree with all your presuppositions, but I disagree with your conclusion. Have you clinked on the link I provided for you and read my succinct reasons for why the NT claims that Jesus is God? Here's what I said in that link:

Here's the few [NT passages] that I think qualify [as explicitly calling Jesus "God"]: John 1.1; 20.28; and Romans 9.5. There are a handful of others that are debatable, but these three I think are most clear. However, as I said, the OT never "proves" that Yahweh is God, or the greatest of all gods, by simply attributing the word "God" to Him. Rather, the OT proves this by bringing to remembrance Yahweh's past, present, and future deeds. He alone created everything, He alone brought the Hebrews out of Egypt, and He alone is the judge of all mankind. The NT does the same when proving that Jesus is God. By Jesus alone the creation has been made new; by Jesus alone the covenant has been made new; by Jesus alone will all men be judged. This is the strongest evidence that Jesus is God, and not the presence of the word "theos". (For example, the Romans called Caesar "theos", but for them to believe he was divine just because they called him divine would have been circular reasoning. Instead, they believed he was divine because of where they believed he had come from, what he had done for them, and what he was capable of doing. "Theos" was used of human kings, hand-crafted idols, and mythical beings from the unseen realm, so using it to speak of Jesus isn't strong enough evidence that He truly is God-above-all-gods. ...) Peace. - Ben

So, to reiterate, Jesus is our God because of what He has done for us, and because our fathers in the early church called Him their God. Being "God" doesn't necessitate being omnipresent or omniscient or having an eternal existence or even being all powerful. Many people's "God" were none of these things. (In fact, I could demonstrate that Yahweh Himself wasn't always thought of in these ways!) For instance, most every "God" was, in fact, believed to have been begotten. But they called those heavenly beings "God" because of what that God had done and was doing for their people. Perhaps it'd be beneficial for you to define "God" for me?