By what name are we saved...Jehovah or Jesus?

[A Seeker]

Hello A Seeker,

For someone who claims to be a Christian, you seem to not know what Christianity is really about. God and God alone saves. So for Jesus to be the Savior is really saying something important. What it says, is something every "Christian" should already know. (Big hint here.)

Hey bandit.

I think you missed my point. But never mind.

[Bandit]

Hey bandit.

I think you missed my point. But never mind.

Okay, I'll take your word for it.

[guestman]

I agree with all your presuppositions, but I disagree with your conclusion. Have you clinked on the link I provided for you and read my succinct reasons for why the NT claims that Jesus is God? Here's what I said in that link:



So, to reiterate, Jesus is our God because of what He has done for us, and because our fathers in the early church called Him their God. Being "God" doesn't necessitate being omnipresent or omniscient or having an eternal existence or even being all powerful. Many people's "God" were none of these things. (In fact, I could demonstrate that Yahweh Himself wasn't always thought of in these ways!) For instance, most every "God" was, in fact, believed to have been begotten. But they called those heavenly beings "God" because of what that God had done and was doing for their people. Perhaps it'd be beneficial for you to define "God" for me?

Evidence has already been submitted to show that Jesus is not God. John 1:1 is not a supporting Scripture, for if a person had done their homework, these would recognize that the second use of theos is presented without a definite article (the), making it read "a god", just as the King James Bible reads at Acts 12:22 and 28:6. In addition, the acceptance of Thomas words at John 20:28 over Jesus words at Matthew 27:46 and John 14:28 (among many others) places Thomas words as having more authority than the perfect Son of God. This is backwards, is it not. And Romans 9:5 does not say that Jesus is God, but that Jesus "sprang according to the flesh", and then says that God is to be "blessed forever", being divided in many Bibles with a semi-colon.

[Nihil Obstat]

John 1:1 is not a supporting Scripture, for if a person had done their homework, these would recognize that the second use of theos is presented without a definite article (the), making it read "a god", just as the King James Bible reads at Acts 12:22 and 28:6.

Yes, it's without the definite article because that's how the predicate generally works. There's a Greek word for "divine", yet it was not used here...

In addition, the acceptance of Thomas words at John 20:28 over Jesus words at Matthew 27:46 and John 14:28 (among many others) places Thomas words as having more authority than the perfect Son of God. This is backwards, is it not.

I'm not following you, sorry. I'll ask again: Would you define "God" for me?

And Romans 9:5 does not say that Jesus is God, but that Jesus "sprang according to the flesh", and then says that God is to be "blessed forever", being divided in many Bibles with a semi-colon.

There's three or four acceptable ways to interpret this verse; I just happen to believe that it makes the most sense to translate it the way I proposed. No big deal if you disagree, and it's not vital to my position, as Jesus is called "God" in more important ways that simply having the title of "theos". (Same with Yahweh.)

[A Seeker]

So, guestman, you've made (I think) a good case for what Jesus is not and we've also heard some compelling argument to the contrary. Rather than keep circling the stump, would you share your thoughts on what Jesus IS?

[guestman]

Yes, it's without the definite article because that's how the predicate generally works. There's a Greek word for "divine", yet it was not used here...

I'm not following you, sorry. I'll ask again: Would you define "God" for me?

There's three or four acceptable ways to interpret this verse; I just happen to believe that it makes the most sense to translate it the way I proposed. No big deal if you disagree, and it's not vital to my position, as Jesus is called "God" in more important ways that simply having the title of "theos". (Same with Yahweh.)

To give support that John 1:1 reads "a god" in the second instance of theos, noted without the definite Greek article ho, there has come to light an ancient manuscript, the Chester Beatty Papyrus 813, located at the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin Ireland, that contains John 1:1 in Sahidic Coptic, a language that the Greek Scriptures was translated into (along with Syriac and Latin) following the death of the apostles at the end of the first century.

The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: “Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses."

The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect.

The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O.*Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.” Thus, Sahidic Coptic has an indefinite article, of which Greek does not.

Hence, the Sahidic Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word “god” in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads: “In the beginning existed the Word and the Word existed with the God and a god was the Word.”

Concerning God, Genesis 17:1 says that "when A´bram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to A´bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless." And when Jesus was praying to his Father, he said that "this means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."(John 17:3)

Thus Jehovah is the "only true God" and of which Jesus himself worshiped. In speaking with the Samaritan woman, he said: "Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you people worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews."(John 4:21, 22) Hence, Jesus worships the Father, Jehovah God.

[Nihil Obstat]

To give support that John 1:1 reads "a god" in the second instance of theos, noted without the definite Greek article ho, there has come to light an ancient manuscript, the Chester Beatty Papyrus 813, located at the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin Ireland, that contains John 1:1 in Sahidic Coptic, a language that the Greek Scriptures was translated into (along with Syriac and Latin) following the death of the apostles at the end of the first century.

The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: “Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses."

The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect.

The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O.*Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.” Thus, Sahidic Coptic has an indefinite article, of which Greek does not.

Hence, the Sahidic Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word “god” in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads: “In the beginning existed the Word and the Word existed with the God and a god was the Word.”

I'm not going to waste my time defending whether any particular verse uses "ho theos" of Jesus or not, because such findings are peripheral to the topic.

Concerning God, Genesis 17:1 says that "when A´bram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to A´bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless." And when Jesus was praying to his Father, he said that "this means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."(John 17:3)

Thus Jehovah is the "only true God" and of which Jesus himself worshiped. In speaking with the Samaritan woman, he said: "Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you people worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews."(John 4:21, 22) Hence, Jesus worships the Father, Jehovah God.

So, Yahweh is God because He says so? Lots of things and people and spiritual entities are called / call themselves "God" - even Paul admits that there are many gods (1 Cor. 8:5). So the title "God" isn't enough reason in itself. Why is Yahweh "God"? How does Yahweh go about proving that He is "God"? Answer that for me.

[Ta-An]

Okay, I am not getting into Sacred Names or Trinity discussion here

All I want to say is this :

In the OT times , Names meant something.
For example :
Abraham, means Father of many nations
Adam, red, named after the soil he was formed from .... etc

Different languages translate names differently, but the meaning of the name stays the same

The other night I woke up terrified, my heart wanted to jump out of my chest, yet I woke up shouting :"Jesus, Jesus" and Fear had to flee!
It is the personality of God as Savior with whom the Spirit in you have a relationship that matters.

So if I call Him Jesus or Yeshua, He is to me my Savior.

[David Taylor]

Is Jesus position diminished by providing Scriptural evidence that Jesus is not Jehovah ? Not a bit. When Jesus was on the torture stake, just before he died, he cried out: "“E´li, E´li, la´ma sa·bach·tha´ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matt 27:46) Could Jesus be God and yet cry out to God, asking why he forsook him ?

This is an easy answer.

You don't see it, because the Watchtower has only taught you to use this passage as a buzz-phrase to diminish the deity of Jesus; there has been no depth of study by the Watchtower, as to what Jesus quoted this passage in the first place, therefore why you missed it, and it becomes a question for you.

The true answer, is simple.

Jesus is hanging on the cross, surrounded by His detractors and enemies, and many witnesses. By quoting Psalms 2 while hanging on the cross near death, Jesus is reminding all of the audience of Psalms 2.

He is using this verse to bring to their attention Psalms 2.

And when you read Psalms 2 in it's entirety, it is a bold statement describing the death of Jesus on the cross....just as it is unfolding in front of their eyes; yet it was written by King David in the Psalms a thousand years beforehand.

Jesus is quoting that Psalm, to show that it is literally being fulfilled, right in front of their eyes.

His intent was not to bring question about His deity at all, but as a bold statement to those who knew the scriptures, of their perfect fulfillment right then in His death in the fulfillment of the scriptures.

Sorry that the Watchtower has never explained this to you, but their instructional classes aren't directed at deep and sound bible understanding; but really only at focusing on finding buzz-phrases to attempt to discredit the history faith and teachings of Christianity regarding the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. The Watchtower spends too much of it's focus on training it's adherents to believe in and follow a different jesus, one who is a mere created being who cannot save anyone from their sins.

Your jesus is powerless, and no more real that the false gods of baal, dagon, and ashteroth of the O.T.; or diana or the unknown god of the greeks in the N.T.; or the later false gods of Allah or the Bab, or the many others people falsely worship today.

[guestman]

I'm not going to waste my time defending whether any particular verse uses "ho theos" of Jesus or not, because such findings are peripheral to the topic.



So, Yahweh is God because He says so? Lots of things and people and spiritual entities are called / call themselves "God" - even Paul admits that there are many gods (1 Cor. 8:5). So the title "God" isn't enough reason in itself. Why is Yahweh "God"? How does Yahweh go about proving that He is "God"? Answer that for me.

The expression "theos" without the definite article "ho" ("the" in English) in regard to John 1:1 is critical to it's proper application. It is because individuals, such as yourself, are determined to promote the trinity doctrine, despite lack of weighty evidence, but uses certain Scriptures that, in your mind, "allude" to Jesus as "God", such as Titus 2:13 or John 5:18 or 8:58 or Philippians 2:6. These Scriptures are "stretched" by persons to supposedly teach the trinity, when in fact these do not.

The term "Almighty" (Hebrew ’El Shad·dai or "God Almighty", "Almighty", Greek Pan·to·kra′tor´ ) is only applied to Jehovah God as at Genesis 17:1, 28:3, 35:11, 43:14, 48:3 and Exodus 6:3, among others. To other "gods", the Hebrew term ’El Gib·bohr´ (mighty divine one) or Gib·bohr´ (mighty one) can be used, with regard to humans (and animals, Prov 30:30), as at Genesis 10:9, in which Nimrod is called "a mighty hunter" or at 1 Samuel 14:52 with regard to king Saul choosing a "mighty man". Jesus is called "Mighty God" (Hebrew ’El Gib·bohr´ ) at Isaiah 9:6.

The Greek word theos (god) can be applied to anyone or anything that a person puts first in their life. However, with the addition of the Hebrew Shad·dai to ’El (god) or of the Greek Pan·to·kra′tor´ to theos (god), this only can apply to Jehovah God as "God Almighty", as at 2 Corinthians 6:18 (without theos), Revelation 1:8, 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 19:6 and 21:22.

How did Jehovah prove that he is God ? Genesis 2:4 says: "This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven." Only an Almighty God can create "the heavens and the earth", fixing "the heavens in discernment (and) by his knowledge the watery deeps (of the earth) themselves were split apart, and the cloudy skies keep dripping down light rain."(Prov 3:19, 20)

The evidence is all around us of a Master Designer, from the sub-atomic structure of the atom, to the colossal size of stars so huge that if placed where our sun is, it would reach past our earth. However, only the Bible identifies him by name, Jehovah.(Ps 83:18, Isaiah 45:18)

[Nihil Obstat]

The expression "theos" without the definite article "ho" ("the" in English) in regard to John 1:1 is critical to it's proper application. It is because individuals, such as yourself, are determined to promote the trinity doctrine, despite lack of weighty evidence, but uses certain Scriptures that, in your mind, "allude" to Jesus as "God", such as Titus 2:13 or John 5:18 or 8:58 or Philippians 2:6. These Scriptures are "stretched" by persons to supposedly teach the trinity, when in fact these do not.

I believe Jesus is God, but I'm not a Trinitarian, and I think I've already told you that. I agree that there is no evidence of Trinity in the Bible, but the NT most certainly describes Jesus as being God in a great number of places and in various ways.

How did Jehovah prove that he is God ? Genesis 2:4 says: "This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven." Only an Almighty God can create "the heavens and the earth", fixing "the heavens in discernment (and) by his knowledge the watery deeps (of the earth) themselves were split apart, and the cloudy skies keep dripping down light rain."(Prov 3:19, 20)

The evidence is all around us of a Master Designer, from the sub-atomic structure of the atom, to the colossal size of stars so huge that if placed where our sun is, it would reach past our earth. However, only the Bible identifies him by name, Jehovah.(Ps 83:18, Isaiah 45:18)

Yes, reckoning Yahweh as the sole Creator of all things is definitely one of the reasons we call Him "God", but it's not the only reason. Many peoples followed / honored Gods who did not create, but were themselves created. Some Gods were even killed and resurrected. Why else do you consider Yahweh to be "God"?

[guestman]

This is an easy answer.

You don't see it, because the Watchtower has only taught you to use this passage as a buzz-phrase to diminish the deity of Jesus; there has been no depth of study by the Watchtower, as to what Jesus quoted this passage in the first place, therefore why you missed it, and it becomes a question for you.

The true answer, is simple.

Jesus is hanging on the cross, surrounded by His detractors and enemies, and many witnesses. By quoting Psalms 2 while hanging on the cross near death, Jesus is reminding all of the audience of Psalms 2.

He is using this verse to bring to their attention Psalms 2.

And when you read Psalms 2 in it's entirety, it is a bold statement describing the death of Jesus on the cross....just as it is unfolding in front of their eyes; yet it was written by King David in the Psalms a thousand years beforehand.

Jesus is quoting that Psalm, to show that it is literally being fulfilled, right in front of their eyes.

His intent was not to bring question about His deity at all, but as a bold statement to those who knew the scriptures, of their perfect fulfillment right then in His death in the fulfillment of the scriptures.

Sorry that the Watchtower has never explained this to you, but their instructional classes aren't directed at deep and sound bible understanding; but really only at focusing on finding buzz-phrases to attempt to discredit the history faith and teachings of Christianity regarding the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. The Watchtower spends too much of it's focus on training it's adherents to believe in and follow a different jesus, one who is a mere created being who cannot save anyone from their sins.

Your jesus is powerless, and no more real that the false gods of baal, dagon, and ashteroth of the O.T.; or diana or the unknown god of the greeks in the N.T.; or the later false gods of Allah or the Bab, or the many others people falsely worship today.

Oh but I do see it and clearly at that. You make it as if Jesus were just saying "“E´li, E´li, la´ma sa·bach·tha´ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” at Matthew 27:46 (and Mark 15:34) to ' remind all of the audience of Psalms 2(2). This would make it as if Jesus was putting on a show for all to see, a display rather than dying in excruciating pain on the torture stake as a ransom "for many".(Matt 20:28)

This reasoning is blatantly wrong, distorted and wants a person to line them themselves up with the trinity. Jesus cried out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me ?” just minutes before he died, not "reminding all of the audience of Psalms 2(2)", but was feeling the removal of his heavenly Father's protective holy spirit, so that he now felt forsaken. He was supplicating his heavenly Father and not reminding the Jews watching.

At Isaiah 59:1, Isaiah says: "Look! The hand of Jehovah has not become too short that it cannot save." The "only true God", Jehovah, is Almighty.(Gen 17:1) Thus, Jesus is not God, for "the only true God" (John 17:3) is complete within himself and not in need of anything or anyone, never feels forsaken. Jehovah God inspired David to write down Psalms 22:1 over 1000 years before Jesus came to the earth to give us an understanding of how Jesus would feel just before his death, that he would have the sensation of being forsaken by his heavenly Father.

In addition, Habakkuk wrote: "Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. "(Hab 1:12) Yet Jesus died.(Matt 27:50; 1 Thess 4:14) Jesus maintained his integrity down to death, so that he could now give this strengthening encouragement: "The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine."(Rev 3:12)

The "only true God", Jehovah, is Jesus God just all others who fully give heed to Jehovah's commandments. That is why Peter told the Jews that David "saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Ha´des ("hell", King James Bible) nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses."(Acts 2:31, 32)

[Nihil Obstat]

It could be said that one can only distinguish between Jesus and the Father insofar as one can distinguish between the Gentiles and the Jews who make up the one church: they're different people groups, yes, with different histories, but they have been made one. (Probably the only cause for hinderance with this way of speaking is that one might walk away wrongly thinking that Jesus is being connected to the converted Gentiles, as if He's the God of the Gentiles / NT, but that is not true, and thus this is not the purpose of making this correlation: what is meant to be conveyed here is the new and shocking oneness of the two.) So is Jesus God? Yes. But has He always been? I would say no.

What Phil. 2:6-11 is saying isn't that Jesus has always been in the form of God, but rather that He is presently in the form of God, and this because God Himself has elevated Jesus to such a status, as a reward for His not having sought to be made equal to God through the power granted Him. This is what John 5:18f is saying as well: the Father has given to Jesus His own authority and portion. Jesus couldn't truly do this by His own initiative, any more than a Gentile outside the commonwealth of Israel could obtain equal status with the Jews by their own strength. (The tricky thing with the gospel according to John is that he has what might be called the "ascended" Jesus doing the walking and talking, which is why we find in that book so many times where Jesus is depicted as God during His earthly ministry, in contrast to the rest of the NT writings.) But now, having been made one with the Father (as it pertains to the Father's "God"-ship), Jesus is (like we Gentiles as it pertains to the Jews' "elect"-ship) now to be equally considered by us to be God.

This shows itself in several places within Scripture, i.e., where it is purposefully vague whether creation is being credited to Jesus or the Father (cf. Col. 1), or where Jesus shows up as the provider of the Hebrews in the wilderness (cf. 1 Cor. 10). In the same way, Abraham is called the father of the Galatians, and the Philippians are counted among the true circumcision. The two have once and for all time been made one. Though Abraham had righteousness reckoned to him before he had been circumcised, he was never considered the father of the uncircumcised (and couldn't have been) until after the Gentiles became one with the Jews through their faith in Christ. Similarly, though Jesus did not yet exist at the creation of all things, it was only after He was made one with the Father that it was said that the Father created all things through / by Jesus. This isn't because Jesus has always secretly been God / in God / whatever, any more than the uncircumcised have always been able to rightly consider Abraham to be their father. Rather, something drastic occurred in human history by God's hand, forever changing our position, and thus our perception - and that event which caused our oneness with the Jews, was this oneness of Jesus with the Father.

Jesus has been made God along with the Father, just as we have been made the people of God (or, the people of the Father and His Son) along with the Jews (and not all Jews, of course, but only those Jews who believe the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms, which speak of Jesus and this oneness).

[ReigningKing]

It is by His blood, and His grace alone that we are saved. If you think that any other name can save except Jesus, then we are not at an accord. Period. Legalism, I can work around. Saying that Christ isn't enough to save, or that He isn't our Savior, is pure blasphemy. /two cents

[Gadgeteer]

Oh but I do see it and clearly at that. You make it as if Jesus were just saying "“E´li, E´li, la´ma sa·bach·tha´ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” at Matthew 27:46 (and Mark 15:34) to ' remind all of the audience of Psalms 2(2). This would make it as if Jesus was putting on a show for all to see, a display rather than dying in excruciating pain on the torture stake as a ransom "for many".(Matt 20:28)

Jesus was calling the Father, "God".

...and in Hebrews1:8, the Father calls the SON, "God".

This reasoning is blatantly wrong, distorted and wants a person to line them themselves up with the trinity. Jesus cried out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me ?” just minutes before he died, not "reminding all of the audience of Psalms 2(2)", but was feeling the removal of his heavenly Father's protective holy spirit, so that he now felt forsaken. He was supplicating his heavenly Father and not reminding the Jews watching.

Jesus is fully God, and the Father is fully God.

Did you ever address Revelation1 ("I Jehovah am the Alpha and Omega"), and Revelation 22 ("I Jesus am the Alpha and Omega")?

At Isaiah 59:1, Isaiah says: "Look! The hand of Jehovah has not become too short that it cannot save." The "only true God", Jehovah, is Almighty.(Gen 17:1) Thus, Jesus is not God, for "the only true God" (John 17:3) is complete within himself and not in need of anything or anyone, never feels forsaken. Jehovah God inspired David to write down Psalms 22:1 over 1000 years before Jesus came to the earth to give us an understanding of how Jesus would feel just before his death, that he would have the sensation of being forsaken by his heavenly Father.

In addition, Habakkuk wrote: "Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. "(Hab 1:12) Yet Jesus died.(Matt 27:50; 1 Thess 4:14) Jesus maintained his integrity down to death, so that he could now give this strengthening encouragement: "The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine."(Rev 3:12)

The "only true God", Jehovah, is Jesus God just all others who fully give heed to Jehovah's commandments. That is why Peter told the Jews that David "saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Ha´des ("hell", King James Bible) nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses."(Acts 2:31, 32)

If Jesus is not God, then Jesus is a created being. And John1 says "apart from Him was nothing created, that has been created".

Who created Jesus?