By what name are we saved...Jehovah or Jesus?

[Gadgeteer]

It is by His blood, and His grace alone that we are saved. If you think that any other name can save except Jesus, then we are not at an accord. Period. Legalism, I can work around. Saying that Christ isn't enough to save, or that He isn't our Savior, is pure blasphemy. /two cents

Agreed. And saying "Jesus isn't God", is not accepting Him on His own terms.

:-)

[guestman]

It could be said that one can only distinguish between Jesus and the Father insofar as one can distinguish between the Gentiles and the Jews who make up the one church: they're different people groups, yes, with different histories, but they have been made one. (Probably the only cause for hinderance with this way of speaking is that one might walk away wrongly thinking that Jesus is being connected to the converted Gentiles, as if He's the God of the Gentiles / NT, but that is not true, and thus this is not the purpose of making this correlation: what is meant to be conveyed here is the new and shocking oneness of the two.) So is Jesus God? Yes. But has He always been? I would say no.

What Phil. 2:6-11 is saying isn't that Jesus has always been in the form of God, but rather that He is presently in the form of God, and this because God Himself has elevated Jesus to such a status, as a reward for His not having sought to be made equal to God through the power granted Him. This is what John 5:18f is saying as well: the Father has given to Jesus His own authority and portion. Jesus couldn't truly do this by His own initiative, any more than a Gentile outside the commonwealth of Israel could obtain equal status with the Jews by their own strength. (The tricky thing with the gospel according to John is that he has what might be called the "ascended" Jesus doing the walking and talking, which is why we find in that book so many times where Jesus is depicted as God during His earthly ministry, in contrast to the rest of the NT writings.) But now, having been made one with the Father (as it pertains to the Father's "God"-ship), Jesus is (like we Gentiles as it pertains to the Jews' "elect"-ship) now to be equally considered by us to be God.

This shows itself in several places within Scripture, i.e., where it is purposefully vague whether creation is being credited to Jesus or the Father (cf. Col. 1), or where Jesus shows up as the provider of the Hebrews in the wilderness (cf. 1 Cor. 10). In the same way, Abraham is called the father of the Galatians, and the Philippians are counted among the true circumcision. The two have once and for all time been made one. Though Abraham had righteousness reckoned to him before he had been circumcised, he was never considered the father of the uncircumcised (and couldn't have been) until after the Gentiles became one with the Jews through their faith in Christ. Similarly, though Jesus did not yet exist at the creation of all things, it was only after He was made one with the Father that it was said that the Father created all things through / by Jesus. This isn't because Jesus has always secretly been God / in God / whatever, any more than the uncircumcised have always been able to rightly consider Abraham to be their father. Rather, something drastic occurred in human history by God's hand, forever changing our position, and thus our perception - and that event which caused our oneness with the Jews, was this oneness of Jesus with the Father.

Jesus has been made God along with the Father, just as we have been made the people of God (or, the people of the Father and His Son) along with the Jews (and not all Jews, of course, but only those Jews who believe the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms, which speak of Jesus and this oneness).

Your line of reasoning is basically the same as the Mormons who says that "as man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become.” They further reason illogically that spirits in heaven are thus said to await a chance to live on a sinful earth—a necessary step toward perfection and godhood.

Enough Scripturally has been established to provide that Jesus is not God, nor will ever be. Otherwise, he would not have not have told the Samaritan woman: "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews...the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him."(John 4:22, 23) Nor would Jesus have said "my God" three times at Revelation 3:12, some 65 years after his death in 33 C.E. Nor would Jesus be identified as "the Lamb of God " at John 1:29, 35.

At Revelation 5:9, 10, Jesus as the Lamb, is seen as being "worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God ( not himself as God) out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God (not himself as God), and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

The apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthian congregation some 20 years after Jesus death, that "in turn you belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God."(1 Cor 3:23) And also: "But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God."(1 Cor 11:3) No equality.

Though it is continuously repeated that "Jesus is God" by a large segment of people, does this make it true ? Former U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882-1945) recognized this fact, for he said: "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth."

[Nihil Obstat]

Though it is continuously repeated that "Jesus is God" by a large segment of people, does this make it true ? Former U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882-1945) recognized this fact, for he said: "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth."

No one here is presenting an argument that "Jesus is God because lots of people have been saying so for a long time." The NT claims Jesus is God in the same ways that the OT claims that Yahweh is God: creation, covenant, courtroom, and class.

[Bandit]

I believe Jesus is God, but I'm not a Trinitarian, and I think I've already told you that. I agree that there is no evidence of Trinity in the Bible, but the NT most certainly describes Jesus as being God in a great number of places and in various ways.
...

Hello Nihil Obstat,

So from the above, would I be correct in assuming that you are Oneness?

[Bandit]

Oh but I do see it and clearly at that. You make it as if Jesus were just saying "“E´li, E´li, la´ma sa·bach·tha´ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” at Matthew 27:46 (and Mark 15:34) to ' remind all of the audience of Psalms 2(2). This would make it as if Jesus was putting on a show for all to see, a display rather than dying in excruciating pain on the torture stake as a ransom "for many".(Matt 20:28)

...

Now there is an obvious (underlined above) JW phrase. (So why can't you call it a cross?)

[Bandit]

...

What Phil. 2:6-11 is saying isn't that Jesus has always been in the form of God, but rather that He is presently in the form of God, and this because God Himself has elevated Jesus to such a status, ...

Now just hold on a minute, Nihil Obstat. Doesn't God say in Isaiah 43:10, "Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me"?

If Jesus was ever equal to God, then I suggest Jesus (Logos) was always equal to God.

[Diggindeeper]

Now just hold on a minute, Nihil Obstat. Doesn't God say in Isaiah 43:10, "Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me"?

If Jesus was ever equal to God, then I suggest Jesus (Logos) was always equal to God.

YES! Always was and always will be.

He was here and he was equal from the very beginning when God said, "Let US make man in OUR image..."

[ReigningKing]

YES! Always was and always will be.

He was here and he was equal from the very beginning when God said, "Let US make man in OUR image..."

He also said "I and the Father are one." Can't really get clearer than that.

[Diggindeeper]

He also said "I and the Father are one." Can't really get clearer than that.

ReigningKing, this is SO true! Its absolutely unprovable that they are different. From the mouth of Christ Jesus himself came the words, "I and the Father are one."

[Nihil Obstat]

Now just hold on a minute, Nihil Obstat. Doesn't God say in Isaiah 43:10, "Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me"?

If Jesus was ever equal to God, then I suggest Jesus (Logos) was always equal to God.

I believe Jesus is equal to the Father as it pertains to God-ship, but the Father is greater than Jesus (cf. John 14:28; 1 Cor. 11:3) in the same way that a master is above his servant, or a parent is above their children, or a husband is above his wife (though all are equally human). Does that make sense?

[Nihil Obstat]

Hello Nihil Obstat,

So from the above, would I be correct in assuming that you are Oneness?

Oneness? No, Jesus and the Father are separate entities, but Jesus at His ascension was made one with the Father as far as God-ship goes.

I call myself an Apostolic Monotheist. (I totally made that title up, so don't go trying to find it in wikipedia or anything! )

[guestman]

No one here is presenting an argument that "Jesus is God because lots of people have been saying so for a long time." The NT claims Jesus is God in the same ways that the OT claims that Yahweh is God: creation, covenant, courtroom, and class.

Why do individuals, such as yourself, keep making statements that are not supported in the Bible, such as "the NT claims Jesus is God in the same ways that the OT claims that Yahweh is God: creation, covenant, courtroom, and class" ? This is an endless charade.

Jesus says : "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me ?" (Matt 27:46), that "the Father taught me" (John 8:28), that "the Father is greater than I am"(John 14:28), that "neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father" knows the "day and hour" when the great tribulations begins (Matt 24:36), that he "worships" the Father (John 4:22,23), that he "offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear."(Heb 5:7), and yet you say that "the NT claims Jesus is God".

You need more than a new pair of glasses, to say the least. The capability to reason effectively on the Bible is distorted due to prejudicial views that the churches have been expousing for centuries. This is no different than condemning a man in a court room despite the overwhelming evidence that he is innocent. It is like the Hatfields and McCoys feuding (1878-91) just because they are from that side of the family, not because of what is right.

The acceptance by many that "Jesus is God" is one of the "strongly entrenched thngs" that the apostle Paul spoke of and of which there is ongoing "warfare" to overturn for those who are willing to reason clearly on the Bible (2 Cor 10:4, 5), allowing the Bible to speak for itself rather than forcibly "driving a square peg in a round hole" as the churches have done for centuries.

[John 8:32]

Why do individuals, such as yourself, keep making statements that are not supported in the Bible, such as "the NT claims Jesus is God in the same ways that the OT claims that Yahweh is God: creation, covenant, courtroom, and class" ? This is an endless charade.

Jesus says : "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me ?" (Matt 27:46), that "the Father taught me" (John 8:28), that "the Father is greater than I am"(John 14:28), that "neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father" knows the "day and hour" when the great tribulations begins (Matt 24:36), that he "worships" the Father (John 4:22,23), that he "offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear."(Heb 5:7), and yet you say that "the NT claims Jesus is God".

You need more than a new pair of glasses, to say the least. The capability to reason effectively on the Bible is distorted due to prejudicial views that the churches have been expousing for centuries. This is no different than condemning a man in a court room despite the overwhelming evidence that he is innocent. It is like the Hatfields and McCoys feuding (1878-91) just because they are from that side of the family, not because of what is right.

The acceptance by many that "Jesus is God" is one of the "strongly entrenched thngs" that the apostle Paul spoke of and of which there is ongoing "warfare" to overturn for those who are willing to reason clearly on the Bible (2 Cor 10:4, 5), allowing the Bible to speak for itself rather than forcibly "driving a square peg in a round hole" as the churches have done for centuries.

Just lettin' the Bible speak for itself...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

With verse 18 in mind, who did Abraham, Jacob, Moses etc see?

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Seems to me you were doin' better before you said to let the Bible speak for itself.

[TalonKarrde_X]

With verse 18 in mind, who did Abraham, Jacob, Moses etc see?

An angel.
Acts 7:53 'You who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.'
Gal 3:19 'Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.'
Heb 2:2 'For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice,'

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

John falling 'as dead' at Jesus' feet, sparks him to speak of his own death and resurrection (Heb 5:7-9). The resurrection that he has received is one to eternal life. He tells John not to be afraid, because, his death and resurrection have also granted him the power to resurrect others from death and Hades (John 14:6). Jesus' resurrection is unique, as we see from 1 Corinthians 15:23-24. In this way, he is the first and the last, because he is the only one to receive this resurrection.

[John 8:32]

An angel.
Acts 7:53 'You who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.'
Gal 3:19 'Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.'
Heb 2:2 'For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice,'

I would disagree, for I believe it is easy enough to find verses that back that it was Christ as the Word or Logos. Here is one...

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

John falling 'as dead' at Jesus' feet, sparks him to speak of his own death and resurrection (Heb 5:7-9). The resurrection that he has received is one to eternal life. He tells John not to be afraid, because, his death and resurrection have also granted him the power to resurrect others from death and Hades (John 14:6). Jesus' resurrection is unique, as we see from 1 Corinthians 15:23-24. In this way, he is the first and the last, because he is the only one to receive this resurrection.

Again, I disagree, for John was not the First and the Last, Christ was and His statement shows shows who He was as the Eternal of the OT and Christ of the NT.