By what name are we saved...Jehovah or Jesus?

[guestman]

Now there is an obvious (underlined above) JW phrase. (So why can't you call it a cross?)

Simply put, because the Greek word stau·ros is properly rendered as "torture stake" and not "cross". The Greek word stau·ros is used synonymously with the Greek word xy´lon concerning what Jesus was hung on, as at Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29, Galatians 3:13 and 1 Peter 2:24, in which the King James Bible renders as "tree" instead of "cross". At Matthew 26:47, the King James Bible renders xy´lon as "staves", which means "band of wood: a long thin piece of wood" such as used making the hull of boat.(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005)

The Greek word dendron, meaning "tree" as at Matthew 3:10 and 7:17, is a living tree as opposed to xy´lon, which is "tree" that been cut down and basically stripped of it's limbs. Thus, the synonymous use of xy´lon with stau·ros does not mean "cross", but "a pale", which means "fence stake: a pointed slat of wood for a fence".(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) The online interlinear Scripture4all reads "pale" as the base meaning of stau·ros (though it puts the word "cross" below it)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible says of stau·ros: "a stake or pole (as set upright)" as it's first meaning. W.*E. Vine says on this subject: “STAUROS (σταυρός) denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, to fasten to a stake or pale, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross.”

Vine goes on to say: “By the middle of the 3rd cent.*A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1981, Vol. 1, p. 256)

[John 8:32]

Simply put, because the Greek word stau·ros is properly rendered as "torture stake" and not "cross". The Greek word stau·ros is used synonymously with the Greek word xy´lon concerning what Jesus was hung on, as at Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29, Galatians 3:13 and 1 Peter 2:24, in which the King James Bible renders as "tree" instead of "cross". At Matthew 26:47, the King James Bible renders xy´lon as "staves", which means "band of wood: a long thin piece of wood" such as used making the hull of boat.(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005)

The Greek word dendron, meaning "tree" as at Matthew 3:10 and 7:17, is a living tree as opposed to xy´lon, which is "tree" that been cut down and basically stripped of it's limbs. Thus, the synonymous use of xy´lon with stau·ros does not mean "cross", but "a pale", which means "fence stake: a pointed slat of wood for a fence".(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) The online interlinear Scripture4all reads "pale" as the base meaning of stau·ros (though it puts the word "cross" below it)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible says of stau·ros: "a stake or pole (as set upright)" as it's first meaning. W.*E. Vine says on this subject: “STAUROS (σταυρός) denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, to fasten to a stake or pale, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross.”

Vine goes on to say: “By the middle of the 3rd cent.*A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1981, Vol. 1, p. 256)

I don't have a problem with cross versus stake, but you are correct about stauros. The cross was promulgated after constantine saw his famous dream "In Hoc Signo Vinces" or else he smoked pallmalls.

[guestman]

Just lettin' the Bible speak for itself...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

With verse 18 in mind, who did Abraham, Jacob, Moses etc see?

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Seems to me you were doin' better before you said to let the Bible speak for itself.

John 1:1 does not say that "and the Word was God", as rendered by many Bibles, but that "and the Word was a god." The first mention of God or theos in Greek was with a definite article ho (meaning "the" in English) The second time was without the definite article, whereas the third time at verse 2 was again with the definite article.

Greek and the languages of Latin or Syriac in which the book of John was translated from Greek, only had a definite article but no indefinite article. However, the language of Sahidic Coptic, in which the book of John was also translated, had an indefinite article such as "a".

It is of interest that an ancient manuscript, written in Sahidic Coptic, should shed light on how John 1:1 was read in the first century C.E. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: “Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses.”

The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O.*Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.”

Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What do we find? The Sahidic Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word “god” in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads: “And the Word was a god.” Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John’s words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was a god, not Almighty God.

JOHN 1:1. SAHIDIC COPTIC TEXT; P. CHESTER BEATTY-813; WITH INTERLINEAR TRANSLATION, located at Dublin, Ireland.

In the beginning existed the Word
and the Word existed with
the God and a god was
the Word

Thus, this is letting "the Bible speak for itself ".

[Nihil Obstat]

Greek and the languages of Latin or Syriac in which the book of John was translated from Greek, only had a definite article but no indefinite article.

Well, this is only kind of true: τις acts as the indefinite article. But τις isn't used here in John 1:1. There's also a word in Greek for "divine", θεῖος, but that word isn't used here either. As I've already briefly explained to you, there is no article in this instance because that's how the predicate generally works. It's equating the "logos" with "theos". This is pretty basic Greek grammar. But John 1:1 isn't that important of a battle. I say we move on.

[Nihil Obstat]

I had previously mentioned four "c"s for why I believe the NT declares Jesus to be God: creation, covenant, class, and courtroom. The OT says that it was Yahweh who created all things, who brought the Hebrew people out of bondage to Egypt and made a covenant with them at Sinai, who is superior to all other people's gods, and who will be the one to judge all humankind. But the NT speaks in just this same way of Jesus: all things are made a new creation by Jesus, He has made the Mosaic covenant new and brought us out of the bondage of sin, He has defeated death and the works of Satan, and it is He who will judge all men in the end. These were very Jewish ways of thinking about "God": they did not think of "God" as having to be omnipresent or anything like that; such ways of thinking would have been very foreign to them, actually.

A great example that supports my position would be the theophanies we find in the OT, and the christophanies of the NT. A passage I've been exploring recently is Habakkuk 3's theophany, where Yahweh is pictured as a warrior with lightning coming from His hands, and plague and death surrounding Him in His wrath, as He comes to defeat the Babylonian god Marduk and save His people from their exile. Now compare that to, say, 2 Thess. 1:6-10 / 2:8, where Jesus is described in much the same way. Or examine Rev. 1:10-16, where John thinks he's hearing the very voice of God, and reacts in the exact manner as Moses does when God appears to Him from the burning bush, and the figure even resembles the Ancient of Days, however the vision is interpreted as symbolizing the other heavenly character of Dan. 7, the son of man. The author's statement would have been clear to the seven churches of the first century: Jesus is God.

[guestman]

Well, this is only kind of true: τις acts as the indefinite article. But τις isn't used here in John 1:1. There's also a word in Greek for "divine", θεῖος, but that word isn't used here either. As I've already briefly explained to you, there is no article in this instance because that's how the predicate generally works. It's equating the "logos" with "theos". This is pretty basic Greek grammar. But John 1:1 isn't that important of a battle. I say we move on.

The apostle John intentionally left out the definite Greek article ton ("the" in English) in the second use of theos ("god" in English) in the expression "and god was the Word". He intentionally used the Greek definite article ho (also rendered as "the") with logos (English "Word") all three times but only twice of the three times that the word theos is used at John 1:1, 2. Why ? Simply to distinguish "the Word" as "a god" from "the God".

Of the word Greek word tis (base meaning "any", G5100), it is a indefinite pronoun that is enclitic (meaning that it depends on a preceding word for its formation or pronunciation, Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) and not an indefinite article. It served no purpose in bringing this into John 1:1, 2 discussion, but is just a ploy to distract from the comprehension of John 1:1 that the "Word", Jesus Christ" is "a god" and not "the God".

[ReigningKing]

The apostle John intentionally left out the definite Greek article ton ("the" in English) in the second use of theos ("god" in English) in the expression "and god was the Word". He intentionally used the Greek definite article ho (also rendered as "the") with logos (English "Word") all three times but only twice of the three times that the word theos is used at John 1:1, 2. Why ? Simply to distinguish "the Word" as "a god" from "the God".

Of the word Greek word tis (base meaning "any", G5100), it is a indefinite pronoun that is enclitic (meaning that it depends on a preceding word for its formation or pronunciation, Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) and not an indefinite article. It served no purpose in bringing this into John 1:1, 2 discussion, but is just a ploy to distract from the comprehension of John 1:1 that the "Word", Jesus Christ" is "a god" and not "the God".

If Christ is not God as you say, then explain to me Genesis 1:26 in which it says: "Let us make man in our own image." Surely God was not speaking in the third person.

[Diggindeeper]

If Christ is not God as you say, then explain to me Genesis 1:26 in which it says: "Let us make man in our own image." Surely God was not speaking in the third person.

EXACTLY!! ..........Was God talking to himself???

[ReigningKing]

EXACTLY!! ..........Was God talking to himself???

I think it one of two things:

1. He was speaking with the other two of the Godhead

or

2. (I consider this very unlikely, but I've heard of it as a explanation) He was talking to the angels. I consider this unlikely, because the angels create nothing, because they are created themselves. Simple as that.

[Diggindeeper]

I think it one of two things:

1. He was speaking with the other two of the Godhead

or

2. (I consider this very unlikely, but I've heard of it as a explanation) He was talking to the angels. I consider this unlikely, because the angels create nothing, because they are created themselves. Simple as that.

Plus, there is no hint that we are LIKE ANGELS in any way! Angels, its seems can make themselves seen or unseen. When they have appeared in scriptures, they appear as men...never women. They are much more powerful. They have AUTHORITY that we don't have as mortals. For example, in Revelations we find sngels who have power over FIRE. (But we sure don't!)

Nope. Not at all likely that he was talking to angels. We are NOT made in their image nor their likeness. That is unfounded and unprovable pure speculation.

[amazzin]

Falsely, to the JW's Jesus is not God. Before he lived on earth, he was Michael, the archangel. Jehovah made the universe through him. On earth he was a man who lives a perfect life. After dying ona stake (not a cross) he was resurrected as a spirit, his body was destroyed. Jesus is not coming again, he "returned" invisibly in 1914 in spirit. Very soon, he and his angels will destroy all non-JW.

Look here folks. There is no grace or mercy in what the JW's believe. The only way to be saved is to be baptised a JW. Most followers must earn everlasting life on earth by "door-to-door" worl. Salvation in heaven is limited,......to 144,000 "anointed ones".

[Gadgeteer]

The apostle John intentionally left out the definite Greek article ton ("the" in English) in the second use of theos ("god" in English) in the expression "and god was the Word". He intentionally used the Greek definite article ho (also rendered as "the") with logos (English "Word") all three times but only twice of the three times that the word theos is used at John 1:1, 2. Why ? Simply to distinguish "the Word" as "a god" from "the God".

Of the word Greek word tis (base meaning "any", G5100), it is a indefinite pronoun that is enclitic (meaning that it depends on a preceding word for its formation or pronunciation, Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) and not an indefinite article. It served no purpose in bringing this into John 1:1, 2 discussion, but is just a ploy to distract from the comprehension of John 1:1 that the "Word", Jesus Christ" is "a god" and not "the God".

"Guestman", I've never been able to understand this interpretation. Everyone (including Jehovah's Witnesses) realize there's only one God (Isaiah43:10 & 45:5). So in what possible reality could John have intended, "Jesus was a false god"?

Do you perceive anything false about Jesus? If He was "false", then He must also have been a liar, hypocrite, sinner, and all other sorts of falsities, mustn't He?

Also --- Jesus accepted worship; He Himself said "GOD ONLY shall you worship" (Matt4:10). Yet time after time Jesus accepted worship, and did not rebuke those who worshiped Him (the Disciples did rebuke those who bowed to them!) --- if Jesus was not THE God, then He was a blasphemer.

I mean no offense --- I'd really like to know how you rationalize these things.

[Nihil Obstat]

The apostle John intentionally left out the definite Greek article ton ("the" in English) in the second use of theos ("god" in English) in the expression "and god was the Word". He intentionally used the Greek definite article ho (also rendered as "the") with logos (English "Word") all three times but only twice of the three times that the word theos is used at John 1:1, 2. Why ? Simply to distinguish "the Word" as "a god" from "the God".

Yeah. 'Cause that's how the predicate generally works. This really is basic Greek grammar. Are you familiar at all with the predicate?

Of the word Greek word tis (base meaning "any", G5100), it is a indefinite pronoun that is enclitic (meaning that it depends on a preceding word for its formation or pronunciation, Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) and not an indefinite article. It served no purpose in bringing this into John 1:1, 2 discussion, but is just a ploy to distract from the comprehension of John 1:1 that the "Word", Jesus Christ" is "a god" and not "the God".

I never said it was the indefinite article, just that it can act as the indefinite article, especially in situations like this. If the author wanted to say that the Word was "a" god, then he most certainly would not have structured his opening sentence the way he did. I say we move on to the points that I brought up concerning the four "c"s.

[Gadgeteer]

Falsely, to the JW's Jesus is not God. Before he lived on earth, he was Michael, the archangel. Jehovah made the universe through him.

That's right. But if God made the "UNIVERSE" through Jesus, who made Jesus? And if He was Michael, why didn't Michael presume to rebuke satan, but Jesus did? (Jude9).

On earth he was a man who lives a perfect life.

So how can a "false god", be a "perfect man"???

After dying on a stake (not a cross) he was resurrected as a spirit, his body was destroyed. Jesus is not coming again, he "returned" invisibly in 1914 in spirit.

Which of course violates what the angels said in Acts1:11 (and numerous others).

Very soon, he and his angels will destroy all non-JW.

Look here folks. There is no grace or mercy in what the JW's believe. The only way to be saved is to be baptised a JW. Most followers must earn everlasting life on earth by "door-to-door" work. Salvation in heaven is limited,......to 144,000 "anointed ones".

Jehovah's Witness has in common with all other religions (including Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, Shinto, Buddhism, Judaism, all of 'em) two things:

1. Jesus is not God.
2. Salvation is by doing good works.

Only Christianity asserts that Jesus IS God, had no beginning, but became flesh (became "begotten"), and is eternal in both directions of time.

And only Christianity asserts that salvation is NOT by works, salvation is a free gift of grace received by faith, the Spirit and the Son actually indwell a person's heart and spirit making him new from the inside out; therefore "good works" are the consequence of salvation, not the means!

Religion purports that men stand before God while their works are weighed on a great scale; the pointer of the scale swings back and forth between LIVE, and PERISH. With knuckles white, jaws clenched, beads of cold perspiration on their foreheads, they wait with the breaths held to see their fate.

Christianity has such a greater peace; for we KNOW the Creator, and we know it's not what we have done, but Who we know, and Who knows us; what we did in life then flowed from that intimate fellowship of love. When our deeds are exposed at the Judgment, the deeds decide nothing; they simply reveal a heart that DWELT in Him (therefore the deeds were good), or they expose a sinful heart that was full of darkness rather than Jesus (therefore the deeds were selfish and evil). There is no fear of judgment for us, for we have already passed from death to life and will not come under condemnation; and there is no fear in love, for fear involves punishment but perfect love casts out fear.

Religion: "You are what you do."
Christianity: "You do what you are!"


Jesus says, "Open the door of your heart to Me --- I will change you from the inside out; I will make you a new creation, and I will do good deeds through you."

:-)

[TalonKarrde_X]

That's right. But if God made the "UNIVERSE" through Jesus, who made Jesus? And if He was Michael, why didn't Michael presume to rebuke satan, but Jesus did? (Jude9). So how can a "false god", be a "perfect man"??? Which of course violates what the angels said in Acts1:11 (and numerous others). Jehovah's Witness has in common with all other religions (including Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, Shinto, Buddhism, Judaism, all of 'em) two things:

1. Jesus is not God.
2. Salvation is by doing good works.

Only Christianity asserts that Jesus IS God, had no beginning, but became flesh (became "begotten"), and is eternal in both directions of time.

And only Christianity asserts that salvation is NOT by works, salvation is a free gift of grace received by faith, the Spirit and the Son actually indwell a person's heart and spirit making him new from the inside out; therefore "good works" are the consequence of salvation, not the means!

Religion purports that men stand before God while their works are weighed on a great scale; the pointer of the scale swings back and forth between LIVE, and PERISH. With knuckles white, jaws clenched, beads of cold perspiration on their foreheads, they wait with the breaths held to see their fate.

Christianity has such a greater peace; for we KNOW the Creator, and we know it's not what we have done, but Who we know, and Who knows us; what we did in life then flowed from that intimate fellowship of love. When our deeds are exposed at the Judgment, the deeds decide nothing; they simply reveal a heart that DWELT in Him (therefore the deeds were good), or they expose a sinful heart that was full of darkness rather than Jesus (therefore the deeds were selfish and evil). There is no fear of judgment for us, for we have already passed from death to life and will not come under condemnation; and there is no fear in love, for fear involves punishment but perfect love casts out fear.

Religion: "You are what you do."
Christianity: "You do what you are!"


Jesus says, "Open the door of your heart to Me --- I will change you from the inside out; I will make you a new creation, and I will do good deeds through you."

*:-)

Except that in everything in which you judge against Jehovah's Witnesses, you get it wrong. Nothing you've said about them is correct, so you judge falsely.

Salvation is not by works alone. But, faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26).