And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his deaths, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.Originally Posted by rejoice44
something like that
Deadpan Snarker
And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his deaths, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
something like that
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
I don't understand.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Coffee Break
That interpretation hardly makes any sense. What does, "he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy mean?"
There is no deceit in Israel's mouth? The whole Old Testament is full of the deceit of Israel, the harlot.
Coffee Break
The New Testament always more fully defines the Old Testament.
Deadpan Snarker
Umm I find this offensive. The whole OT is about Israel being deceitful? The whole thing? And you have to put the word "harlot" in? Is that really in every book of the bible?There is no deceit in Israel's mouth? The whole Old Testament is full of the deceit of Israel, the harlot.
I'm out of this discussion, thanks.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Coffee Break
I am sorry this offends you, it is not personal. All of mankind has a sin nature, be it Jew or Gentile. The Bible is basically about the Jew, thus the sin nature of the Jew becomes magnified.
Coffee Break
Fenris when I wrote this it did not occur at the time how offensive this might be to you. From my perspective we are all sinners. I am a sinner saved by grace. I am no better than any one, and perhaps worse than most.
From your perspective you are good (righteous), and have no need of redemption from sins. This is what divides the Christian from the unsaved Jew.
This thread is about the "Servant Songs" which includes Isaiah 53. In Isaiah 53:9 it says "neither was their any deceit in his mouth. You claim that this refers to Israel and I was trying to make the point that it couldn't refer to Israel.
I am truly sorry that I have offended you.
Deadpan Snarker
You've been on the whole a very decent fellow. Apology accepted. Carry on.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Coffee Break
Thank you.You've been on the whole a very decent fellow. Apology accepted. Carry on.
I guess my point is that Jesus fulfilled those verses contained in Isaiah chapters 42, 49, 50, 52-53 while Israel has not. The odds that one man could have fulfilled them is astronomical. I know you say that they don't have the birth year of Christ right, but regardless of whether it is right or not, the whole world is still paying tribute to him, even if they don't like it. That alone is really amazing.
Deadpan Snarker
I'm still staying out of this discussion though.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
μαθητής
It seems that the Council of Nicea must have gotten to the Dead Sea Scrolls as well, those clever dogs!
analyze. synthesize. repeat.
*It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*
Deadpan Snarker
Who on earth is "Fred P Miller"?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
is a Benedictine Monk
As far as I know, the Council of Nicea did not change anything in the Bible when they met. Their main purpose was to bring order to the beliefs of the church. Constantine had just become Emperor and a Christian and he wanted to know what the Christians believed. But since before his time, there had never been a meeting of all the Christian bishops, each regional area, had some differences in the way they did things. For example the way the Alexandrian church and Anitochian church read the Bible were very different, the Alexandrian church had a more allegorical reading of the Bible (look at Origen and Clement of Alexandria for more information). Whereas the Anitochians read it in a more literal (I think) (look at Ignatius of Anitoch).
So the Council of Nicea met to try and organize their beliefs and state what the universal church believed. They focused on the date of Easter, wither it should be a moving date, always following the Passover or should it always be on a Sunday. They dealt with some schisms. They questioned wither those baptized by people who later became heretics should be valid. What the status of those who had lapsed (those who made sacrifice to pagan gods/the emperor during the persecution of the church) and how they should, if they could, be brought back into communion with the church. They were also going to hear and judge some beliefs a priest from Alexandria held, his name was Arius. After they heard his ideas the whole council's agenda changed and they came up with the Nicene Creed to state the orthodox beliefs of the church. Arius was saying that Jesus was just a creature not God. [Fun fact: St. Nicholas got so outraged a Arius's beliefs that he punched him in the face as he was walking by.]
If you want to see what the Council of Nicea came up with/declared at the end of the council you can read about it here. These are the actual documents from the council. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3801.htm (Link to Canons and letter of Nicea).
You will see in the canons and letter no mention of changing Isaiah.
Member
No, they did not change the scriptures. And yes, there is mention of the spirit in Isaiah "the Lord sent Me and His Spirit."
Context, context, context.
In context, the servant songs are remarkable in that they begin saying God will bring his justice to the nations and climax with a chapter describing what sounds as an injustice to an individual And along the way the songs remind the reader to ponder how Abraham became righteous through faith and that God will bless not merely Israel but his salvation will reach the ends of the earth.
Remarkable high repetition. 7 times -rejected, 10 times -suffering for sin, 7 time -dying, 7 times -overcoming death somehow
In the end both Jesus and apostles referred to Jesus fulfilling Isaiah 53 and John the baptist described himself as the one in Is 40 who was 'a voice crying in the wilderness"
Not made up, de nova, by the councel of Niicea.
Senior Member
Contrary to popular myth, the First Council of Nicea had nothing to do with the Scriptures. It was convened in order to deal with Arius and his teachings, articulating the historic teaching and experience of the church, and to iron out a few issues of church order and discipline. At no point during the First Council of Nicea was anything pertaining to the canon of Scripture or the content thereof a subject of discussion.
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