Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretic

[Slug1]

Well Jude said that Christ is able to keep us thats Christians from falling and present us faultless before His glory with exceeding joy. vs 24-25 Also Jude calls us preserved in Christ. vs 1 Christians cannot become apostate if it means that there is no possiblity forgivness for them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Then what does "fallen" away mean from the Bible?

[notuptome]

Then what does "fallen" away mean from the Bible?

Varies depending on the context. What do you think it means?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Slug1]

Varies depending on the context. What do you think it means?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I will patiently wait for you to first answer the question.

[notuptome]

I will patiently wait for you to first answer the question.

In the context of Jude it means that Jesus Christ is able to keep us from stumbling in our walk with Him. It is about sanctification not about salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Slug1]

In the context of Jude it means that Jesus Christ is able to keep us from stumbling in our walk with Him. It is about sanctification not about salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Which scripture in the chapter of Jude and the scripture I had viewed was, Hebrews 6:4-6. Let me go look through Jude.

[Slug1]

In the context of Jude it means that Jesus Christ is able to keep us from stumbling in our walk with Him. It is about sanctification not about salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Which scripture in the chapter of Jude and the scripture I had viewed was, Hebrews 6:4-6. Let me go look through Jude.

In reading Jude again, I'm reminded that the chapter is about those never in Christ, so they can't "fall" away or become "fallen".

So, not in the Jude context then since the topic is about those never in Christ. What about those who HAVE partaken of the Holy Spirit and then... fall away as in the context of the Hebrew scriptures?

[notuptome]

In reading Jude again, I'm reminded that the chapter is about those never in Christ, so they can't "fall" away or become "fallen".

So, not in the Jude context then since the topic is about those never in Christ. What about those who HAVE partaken of the Holy Spirit and then... fall away as in the context of the Hebrew scriptures?

Wow how you reach that conclusion is astounding. Jude is writing to believers and warning them of apostacy and false teachers. Jude is telling them that there are some who pose as believers who are not. He is telling the believers to contend for the faith and not to fall into the error that the false teachers are teaching. Know the book and do the book. Know the genuine article and the false has no attraction.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Slug1]

Wow how you reach that conclusion is astounding. Jude is writing to believers and warning them of apostacy and false teachers. Jude is telling them that there are some who pose as believers who are not. He is telling the believers to contend for the faith and not to fall into the error that the false teachers are teaching. Know the book and do the book. Know the genuine article and the false has no attraction.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Right... you just said what I said... the context of Jude isn't about those who have accepted Christ and then fell away. It's about those who are always away, never "fallen" away.

Those who Jude is talking about "can't" fall away, they are ONLY and always will be "away" from Christ.

So, lets bring in the Hebrews context... those who have "partaken" of the Holy Spirit and THEN, fall away?

What does that mean to you?

[notuptome]

Right... you just said what I said... the context of Jude isn't about those who have accepted Christ and then fell away. It's about those who are always away, never "fallen" away.

Those who Jude is talking about "can't" fall away, they are ONLY and always will be "away" from Christ.

So, lets bring in the Hebrews context... those who have "partaken" of the Holy Spirit and THEN, fall away?

What does that mean to you?

This is a hypothetical what if statement. The writer of Hebrews is not asserting that one can fall away in the sense that they lost their salvation only that if it were possible then it would certainly be impossible for them to renew themselves.

Jude in his salutation and his conclusion is speaking to believers. Jude did not write his epistle to lost Jews.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Slug1]

This is a hypothetical what if statement. The writer of Hebrews is not asserting that one can fall away in the sense that they lost their salvation only that if it were possible then it would certainly be impossible for them to renew themselves.

Why do you say "if" possible? Let's read the scripture together:

v4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

The scripture doesn't say what you just said... you said, "if it were possible".... the scripture doesn't say that at all and don't come NEAR saying that. The scripture says straight up... "if they fall away".

That means, if... doesn't say, if possible, the scripture says... IF THEY FALL AWAY.

You just changed the scripture to say... "if it's possible to fall away"

You're meaning, or what you WANT the scripture to mean, doesn't align with God's Word... you CHANGED the meaning.

Jude in his salutation and his conclusion is speaking to believers. Jude did not write his epistle to lost Jews.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Right, I understand that. He's talking TO Jews about people who are NEVER in Christ and how, why, all that... so they understand.

[notuptome]

Why do you say "if" possible? Let's read the scripture together:

v4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

The scripture doesn't say what you just said... you said, "if it were possible".... the scripture doesn't say that at all and don't come NEAR saying that. The scripture says straight up... "if they fall away".

That means, if... doesn't say, if possible, the scripture says... IF THEY FALL AWAY.

You just changed the scripture to say... "if it's possible to fall away"

You're meaning, or what you WANT the scripture to mean, doesn't align with God's Word... you CHANGE the meaning.

Right, I understand that. He's talking TO Jews about people who are NEVER in Christ and how, why, all that... so they understand.

You did not learn this the last time it was discussed. You continue to labor over the same old things. Same problem the writer in Hebrews faced. ch 5:11-14 right before the passage in ch 6:4-6. Same problem nearly two thousand years later.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Slug1]

You did not learn this the last time it was discussed. You continue to labor over the same old things. Same problem the writer in Hebrews faced. ch 5:11-14 right before the passage in ch 6:4-6. Same problem nearly two thousand years later.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger... the context of chapter 5 is so understanding the "if" of falling away is possible. YES, it is the same problem 2000 years later because these scriptures are a WARNING to those in Christ about falling away.

In other words... becoming apostate after having tasted the Holy Spirit but because they only fed on the milk... "if they fall away" makes sense... they weren't discipled to enable them to persevere and run the race and endure to the end.

That scripture from chapter 5 helps us all understand what chapter 6 is all about.

Thanks dude!!

Doesn't help your case though...

[bibledweeb]

Originally heretic in secular Greek was a harmless word. Signifying someone who held his own opinion(it still mostly had this innocent definition in Acts and Luke with the exception of Acts 15:1).

But eventually(by the NT period) it came to also mean someone fond of making schisms and factions. Who held that his opinion(even if otherwise sound) was the only correct one and that everyone else was wrong. In this sense, the term is very synonymous with dichostasia(used next to this word in the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:20 and sarcastically remarked in 1 Corinthians 11:19).

In this case, the Apostle Paul first tells Titus to steer clear of these foolish controversies, genealogical trifles, quarrels, and fights. And now finally admonishes him to shun the one who was starting these divisive debates(via the three-strikes-your-out policy). Paul continues that he's twisted, sinful, and self-condemned.

Heresy never came to be known as unorthodox teaching(as we know it) until much later in 2 Peter 2:1(but notice the term is qualified by destructive) and especially by the Early Church Fathers(sometime after Revelation was written).

Thus by the time the New Testament was written, heresy had both positive and negative connotations to the Greeks(depending on the authors intent). So based on the immediate context, I believe Paul had a self-centered factitious fanatic in mind. Divisive because of his arrogant disposition, not necessarily because of his views.