The Interpertation of Matt 12:43:-45 ??

[dan p]

Hi to all , and Matt 12:43-45 have always been a puzzling verse and many Applications are taken from the verses in Matthew .

The most popular Application , many say is that when a person cleans himself up by tossing out the unclean spirit , and change his speech , and the way he treats his fellowman and family and attends church , he is a changed man .

But he has no rest , because Christ is the only REST today !

This speaks of Israel 2000 years ago and Judgment happened at the Cross .

I feel that what is missed here is a NEAR and Far view and several timelines that many will never see nor believe , but here goes .

Israel was judged at the Cross and all the Uncleans spirits and Satan was Defeated , but not Judged , and Israel was set aside , Rom 11:25 .


-------------------------------------------A new Age begins called the MYSTERY--------------------------------



Christ appointed a New Apostle that is only preachin Grace , Eph 3:1-9 and Rom 16:25 , called the Dispensation of the Grace of God


Then this Age ends , " when the Fulness of the Gentiles be come in " in Rom 11:25 , and the Departure happens , which many call the Rapture .




--------------------------------Then begins the 7 years Tribulation -------------------------------------------

Then here is the FAR VIEW and it happens in the Tribulation and that when Israel rejected their Messiah and when all Jews go back to Israel , than Israel is again Demon possessed with 7 spirits ( 7 speaks of completeness ) and Israel then is again Demon possessed with the Satan , the Beast , and the False Prophet , Rev 20:10 and Rev 18:1-2 .

Satan's seat , my opinion , is in Israel , because that is where all action will be in , the Middle East .

DAN P

[David Taylor]

Hi to all , and Matt 12:43-45 have always been a puzzling verse and many Applications are taken from the verses in Matthew .

The most popular Application , many say is that when a person cleans himself up by tossing out the unclean spirit , and change his speech , and the way he treats his fellowman and family and attends church , he is a changed man .

This might be the most popular worldly application, but it isn't the accurate application.

Noone changes himself into being a clean man. Jesus Christ and His shed blood does all the cleaning of any repentant sinner.

Israel was judged at the Cross and all the Uncleans spirits and Satan was Defeated , but not Judged , and Israel was set aside , Rom 11:25 .

Bad theology.

All human beings were judged at the cross, and noone was set aside.

Romans 11 doesn't show anyone being block from the cross; but rather, it shows that the faithful branches are not cast off but are graffed in and partake of the fatness of the tree.

Any Israelite has been welcomed to partake of the fatness of the tree, and of the free gift of salvation throughout the last 2000 years and will continue to be welcomed forever more, as long as sin plagues the earth.

-------------------------------------------A new Age begins called the MYSTERY--------------------------------


Christ appointed a New Apostle that is only preachin Grace , Eph 3:1-9 and Rom 16:25 , called the Dispensation of the Grace of God


Then this Age ends , " when the Fulness of the Gentiles be come in " in Rom 11:25 , and the Departure happens , which many call the Rapture .

More bad assumptions, reading things into the texts that aren't in there, and that don't have anything to do with Matthew 12:43-45.

There is no new apostle, nor any new age.

There have been many apostles, and many teachers, and preachers, and shares of the grace of God; that has spanned all human history. The only 'age' that the New Testament knows of, is the age to come which is the age of eternal life for all who belong to Christ, and eternal damnation for those who reject Christ.

--------------------------------Then begins the 7 years Tribulation -------------------------------------------

Then here is the FAR VIEW and it happens in the Tribulation and that when Israel rejected their Messiah and when all Jews go back to Israel , than Israel is again Demon possessed with 7 spirits ( 7 speaks of completeness ) and Israel then is again Demon possessed with the Satan , the Beast , and the False Prophet , Rev 20:10 and Rev 18:1-2 .

Satan's seat , my opinion , is in Israel , because that is where all action will be in , the Middle East .

DAN P

Nothing in the New Testament mentions a 7 year tribulation period. Nothing in the New Testament, nor in Revelation 18 or 20, speak of a future Israel being demon possessed.

Your Pauline Dispensationalism doctrines have you really messed up Dan. You should consider the notion of 'stop' trying to teach everyone else, and start listening, and asking questions....so that others can help you abandon and recover from this really bad and unsound doctrine (Paulineism) that you've picked up.

[dan p]

Nothing in the New Testament mentions a 7 year tribulation period. Nothing in the New Testament, nor in Revelation 18 or 20, speak of a future Israel being demon possessed.

Hi , and in Rev 11:2 , how long is 42 months ??

It says that there are spirits of devils , working miracles , in Rev 16:15 , so when does this happen or do you hold a Preterist view ?

And when does 2 Thess 2:4 , happen IF not in the Tribulation with a rebuilt Temple ?

dan p

[dunedain]

Hi to all , and Matt 12:43-45 have always been a puzzling verse and many Applications are taken from the verses in Matthew .

The most popular Application , many say is that when a person cleans himself up by tossing out the unclean spirit , and change his speech , and the way he treats his fellowman and family and attends church , he is a changed man .

But he has no rest , because Christ is the only REST today !

This speaks of Israel 2000 years ago and Judgment happened at the Cross .

I feel that what is missed here is a NEAR and Far view and several timelines that many will never see nor believe , but here goes .

Israel was judged at the Cross and all the Uncleans spirits and Satan was Defeated , but not Judged , and Israel was set aside , Rom 11:25 .


-------------------------------------------A new Age begins called the MYSTERY--------------------------------



Christ appointed a New Apostle that is only preachin Grace , Eph 3:1-9 and Rom 16:25 , called the Dispensation of the Grace of God


Then this Age ends , " when the Fulness of the Gentiles be come in " in Rom 11:25 , and the Departure happens , which many call the Rapture .




--------------------------------Then begins the 7 years Tribulation -------------------------------------------

Then here is the FAR VIEW and it happens in the Tribulation and that when Israel rejected their Messiah and when all Jews go back to Israel , than Israel is again Demon possessed with 7 spirits ( 7 speaks of completeness ) and Israel then is again Demon possessed with the Satan , the Beast , and the False Prophet , Rev 20:10 and Rev 18:1-2 .

Satan's seat , my opinion , is in Israel , because that is where all action will be in , the Middle East .

DAN P

First, there is no such a thing as a 7 year tribulation. Tribulation is ongoing for the disciple of Christ. Daniel's 70 weeks have already been fulfilled there is no such a thing as some kind of "pause" between the 69th and 70th week, such a notion of a "pause" is entirely at odds with every temporal prophecy ever given by God, which prophecies ALWAYS run their course without a pause; a pause would defeat the entire purpose of giving a temporal sequence. As if I were to say to you, "I will come visit you in exactly seven days; oh, by the way, there will be a pause of undeterminable length between the 6th and 7th day- rendering my entire temporal statement "in 7 days" entirely meaningless. Anyway, of Daniel's 4 weeks prophecies (70 weeks; 62 weeks from the command; 7 weeks from the command; .5 weeks), only the 7 weeks remains, and it is near fulfillment.

Also, there's no such a thing as a "new mystery age" and Israel was never "set aside"; some of Israel were blinded in part, but there will never be such a thing as a renewal of the Sinai covenant, and the children of the flesh have no speciality whatsoever in the eyes of God. There is only the true Israel, which is Christ; the seed of Abraham, and we who are in Christ, whether Jew or Greek, as it were, we are the children of the promise through Christ; and we are the Israel of God; not this earthly kingdom of the children of the flesh. God will NEVER again pass by the children of the flesh in any way, shape or form, except through Christ, as it is with us all.

Now, that being said: you are entirely correct in the substance of your post. Because we know that Sinai is Hagar, and her children are Ishmael- which received the covenant of circumcision on the 8th day before Isaac, to whom the promise would come, was yet born. Now, as Paul teaches, what does the scripture say? Cast out the bondwoman and her son; they have nothing to do with Isaac, in whom Abraham's seed would be called. Then, even as the elder persecuted the younger, so it will be; but the elder shall serve the younger; as it is also written, I will make them to come and worship at your feet, and to know that I have loved you"

So the scripture says, That which was is that which will be, so answer me this: who was the enemy at the first coming; the fulfilling of the Firstfruit moedim? Expect nothing different at the second coming. Consider:

The beast from the sea has 10 horns: the House of Israel: 10 tribes.
The beast from the earth has 2 horns: the House of Judah: 2 horns.

The deadly wound was 70ad. The healing of the deadly wound: 1948ad.
Look around you at a lot of Christians, especially those pursuing prophecy and what do you see? Do you see people wondering after this miraculous recovery? Are they beginning to wonder after the beast? Wait until you see what's coming; EVERYONE is going to be singing the praises of "Israel" in time.

What's going on here is this: Christians have been taught to understand "Israel" as meaning that earthly kingdom over there in the middle east. So they look at Israel in prophecy and all go, "Look, it's just like in the bible- there is Israel right there and prophecy is coming to pass right there in the middle east about Israel." Which, is not a difficult thing to do given that the name being used is "Israel" ; but the prophetic Israel is THE CHURCH. When you see Israel in prophecy, it is meaning the church at the end of the age- NOT the children of the flesh; the end of the age already came upon them at the first coming.

So what happens if we have a bunch of earthly armies attack that earthly nation, and that earthly city? Well, lots of people would say, "Look, it's prophecy being fulfilled" but it isn't. It's a lie. There are two Israels on the earth right now. The heavenly Israel, which is the children of the promise, and Christ; and the earthly Israel, which is the children of the flesh, and Satan. Esau and Jacob struggling in the womb of Rebekah.

Go read the book of the prophecy of Obadiah. It is about the nation men call "Israel" but who God calls Edom.

The children of the promise versus the children of the flesh.

Satan is an identity thief, dan. He has been through the whole game. Let me ask you something:

Near future. Mid east turmoil grows. Bad times in the world. Strange lights in the sky. Is Obama the antichrist? Israel is attacked by prophetic nations like Islam and Russia. Suddenly, trumpets! Lightnings! The sky erupts into light and sound! Beings of light descend from the sky, a GREAT SHOUT! Fire from the heavens consumes the armies coming against Israel! Angelic hosts descend upon the nations of men! People witnesses dead rising from the grave! It's Jesus! It's the second coming! He's extending forgiveness and salvation to ALL EVERYWHERE PRAISE HIM!

How many Christians do you think would worship this being? How would the world react? But guess what? They all just lost their crowns...

[dan p]

First, there is no such a thing as a 7 year tribulation. Tribulation is ongoing for the disciple of Christ. Daniel's 70 weeks have already been fulfilled there is no such a thing as some kind of "pause" between the 69th and 70th week, such a notion of a "pause" is entirely at odds with every temporal prophecy ever given by God, which prophecies ALWAYS run their course without a pause; a pause would defeat the entire purpose of giving a temporal sequence. As if I were to say to you, "I will come visit you in exactly seven days; oh, by the way, there will be a pause of undeterminable length between the 6th and 7th day- rendering my entire temporal statement "in 7 days" entirely meaningless. Anyway, of Daniel's 4 weeks prophecies (70 weeks; 62 weeks from the command; 7 weeks from the command; .5 weeks), only the 7 weeks remains, and it is near fulfillment.

Also, there's no such a thing as a "new mystery age" and Israel was never "set aside"; some of Israel were blinded in part, but there will never be such a thing as a renewal of the Sinai covenant, and the children of the flesh have no speciality whatsoever in the eyes of God. There is only the true Israel, which is Christ; the seed of Abraham, and we who are in Christ, whether Jew or Greek, as it were, we are the children of the promise through Christ; and we are the Israel of God; not this earthly kingdom of the children of the flesh. God will NEVER again pass by the children of the flesh in any way, shape or form, except through Christ, as it is with us all.

Now, that being said: you are entirely correct in the substance of your post. Because we know that Sinai is Hagar, and her children are Ishmael- which received the covenant of circumcision on the 8th day before Isaac, to whom the promise would come, was yet born. Now, as Paul teaches, what does the scripture say? Cast out the bondwoman and her son; they have nothing to do with Isaac, in whom Abraham's seed would be called. Then, even as the elder persecuted the younger, so it will be; but the elder shall serve the younger; as it is also written, I will make them to come and worship at your feet, and to know that I have loved you"

So the scripture says, That which was is that which will be, so answer me this: who was the enemy at the first coming; the fulfilling of the Firstfruit moedim? Expect nothing different at the second coming. Consider:

The beast from the sea has 10 horns: the House of Israel: 10 tribes.
The beast from the earth has 2 horns: the House of Judah: 2 horns.

The deadly wound was 70ad. The healing of the deadly wound: 1948ad.
Look around you at a lot of Christians, especially those pursuing prophecy and what do you see? Do you see people wondering after this miraculous recovery? Are they beginning to wonder after the beast? Wait until you see what's coming; EVERYONE is going to be singing the praises of "Israel" in time.

What's going on here is this: Christians have been taught to understand "Israel" as meaning that earthly kingdom over there in the middle east. So they look at Israel in prophecy and all go, "Look, it's just like in the bible- there is Israel right there and prophecy is coming to pass right there in the middle east about Israel." Which, is not a difficult thing to do given that the name being used is "Israel" ; but the prophetic Israel is THE CHURCH. When you see Israel in prophecy, it is meaning the church at the end of the age- NOT the children of the flesh; the end of the age already came upon them at the first coming.

So what happens if we have a bunch of earthly armies attack that earthly nation, and that earthly city? Well, lots of people would say, "Look, it's prophecy being fulfilled" but it isn't. It's a lie. There are two Israels on the earth right now. The heavenly Israel, which is the children of the promise, and Christ; and the earthly Israel, which is the children of the flesh, and Satan. Esau and Jacob struggling in the womb of Rebekah.

Go read the book of the prophecy of Obadiah. It is about the nation men call "Israel" but who God calls Edom.

The children of the promise versus the children of the flesh.

Satan is an identity thief, dan. He has been through the whole game. Let me ask you something:

Near future. Mid east turmoil grows. Bad times in the world. Strange lights in the sky. Is Obama the antichrist? Israel is attacked by prophetic nations like Islam and Russia. Suddenly, trumpets! Lightnings! The sky erupts into light and sound! Beings of light descend from the sky, a GREAT SHOUT! Fire from the heavens consumes the armies coming against Israel! Angelic hosts descend upon the nations of men! People witnesses dead rising from the grave! It's Jesus! It's the second coming! He's extending forgiveness and salvation to ALL EVERYWHERE PRAISE HIM!

How many Christians do you think would worship this being? How would the world react? But guess what? They all just lost their crowns...

Hi , just as what I write does not make sense to you I understand exactly what you mean in your answer to me , even when I know it is wrong . What many do not see is that the Gospels are ALL OT ground and Law of Moses keepers to Act 28:28 .

If we are to go on to your premise , why did not Jesus bring in the Kingdom of Heaven as He was preaching in Matt 4:17 , and it is because Israel had been set aside , and this what many Preterist on this site believe, more than I expected as many sites do not allow the Preterist view , so who Lost their Crowns , and if you say Revelation , it is all Jewish , dan p

[dunedain]

Hi , just as what I write does not make sense to you I understand exactly what you mean in your answer to me , even when I know it is wrong . What many do not see is that the Gospels are ALL OT ground and Law of Moses keepers to Act 28:28 .

Not surprising that the Messiah perfectly fulfilled the Sinai covenant since that covenant was to prove the Messiah. Of course the gospels are ALL OT ground, the entire bible is OT ground. Of what relevance do you think this is?

If we are to go on to your premise , why did not Jesus bring in the Kingdom of Heaven as He was preaching in Matt 4:17

Probably because the Jews rejected it and broke the Sinai covenant by murdering the Law on a tree; thus making the Law a curse. Just a hunch. So guess what? Time for a new and better covenant; i.e. the kingdom of heaven taken from them and was given to another bearing the fruits thereof; i.e. taken from Esau and given to Jacob, taken from the children of the flesh and given to the children of the promise, etc.

and it is because Israel had been set aside

Entirely false. Some branches were broken off, but the tree remains before God as always. There is no such a thing as God "setting aside Israel" only God purifying Israel.

and this what many Preterist on this site believe...

What preterists believe does not concern me.

[David Taylor]

Hi , and in Rev 11:2 , how long is 42 months ??

42 months is 3.5 years, not 7 years. Revelation nor anywhere in the N.T. is a 7 year period mentioned.

Revelation mentions FIVE 3.5 year periods; none with context tell us to combine any of them to form a 7 year period; so at best, you have a 17.5 total year period, if you total them all up...which again, the Revelation scriptures don't tell us to do.

It says that there are spirits of devils , working miracles , in Rev 16:15 , so when does this happen or do you hold a Preterist view ?

I am not a Preterist. Revelation 16:15 mentions nothing about Israel being possessed by demons in the future.

And when does 2 Thess 2:4 , happen IF not in the Tribulation with a rebuilt Temple ?

dan p

The final everlasting temple has already been built. God will never build another temple made with hands. It would have no purpose, and it would be an insult to the present everlasting temple.

[dan p]

42 months is 3.5 years, not 7 years. Revelation nor anywhere in the N.T. is a 7 year period mentioned.

Revelation mentions FIVE 3.5 year periods; none with context tell us to combine any of them to form a 7 year period; so at best, you have a 17.5 total year period, if you total them all up...which again, the Revelation scriptures don't tell us to do.



I am not a Preterist. Revelation 16:15 mentions nothing about Israel being possessed by demons in the future.



The final everlasting temple has already been built. God will never build another temple made with hands. It would have no purpose, and it would be an insult to the present everlasting temple.

Hi , And Dan 9:20-27 answer why it is 7 years !!

Answers why they cause the sacrifice to cease and that is in the Temple and Dan 9:27 AND dAN 11:31 AND 2 Thess 2:2-4 are Idenical .

This means that the temple will be rebuilt during the Tribulation whether anyone believes Daniel or 2 Thess , dan p

[John146]

Hi , And Dan 9:20-27 answer why it is 7 years !!

There is no 7 year tribulation described there. In Daniel 9:27 the only thing it says about the 70th week is that a covenant that would be confirmed during that time and in the midst of that time "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease". Where do you get a 7 year tribulation out of that? It doesn't even mention tribulation occurring during that time.

[dan p]

There is no 7 year tribulation described there. In Daniel 9:27 the only thing it says about the 70th week is that a covenant that would be confirmed during that time and in the midst of that time "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease". Where do you get a 7 year tribulation out of that? It doesn't even mention tribulation occurring during that time.

Hi , and I get it from Dan 9:24 and 26 , 27 , where is speaks of 70 weeks and Dan 12:11 and Matt 24:15 are the same Prophecy and most believers that are not Pre-tri will not believe these verses not 2 Thess 2:3and 4 and the word temple in verse 4 means nothing , so what is new , nothing , and most are not comfortable with Dispensationalism and reject and as 2 Peter 3:15-16 says , that what Paul writes is Hard to understand , and not knowing Pauline truth All are Un-learned and Un-stable and Twist scripture to their own Destruction and that is what the Holy Spirit said through Peter , dan p

[quiet dove]

Mod note:

Guys, stand your ground with your scriptural support, but getting personal toward those of opposing views is not an acceptable aspect or addition to go along with the disagreement

[Diggindeeper]

Hi , and I get it from Dan 9:24 and 26 , 27 , where is speaks of 70 weeks and Dan 12:11 and Matt 24:15 are the same Prophecy and most believers that are not Pre-tri will not believe these verses not 2 Thess 2:3and 4 and the word temple in verse 4 means nothing , so what is new , nothing , and most are not comfortable with Dispensationalism and reject and as 2 Peter 3:15-16 says , that what Paul writes is Hard to understand , and not knowing Pauline truth All are Un-learned and Un-stable and Twist scripture to their own Destruction and that is what the Holy Spirit said through Peter , dan p

Mod note:

Guys, stand your ground with your scriptural support, but getting personal toward those of opposing views is not an acceptable aspect or addition to go along with the disagreement

RIGHT, quiet dove. Just because many of us disagree with dan p, that does not make HIM all knowledgable, all wise, with all understanding and the rest of us stupid, unstable, and 'headed for destruction! And twisting scriptures to make them fit against a certain theological view only makes one look childish and arrogant.

[John146]

RIGHT, quiet dove. Just because many of us disagree with dan p, that does not make HIM all knowledgable, all wise, with all understanding and the rest of us stupid, unstable, and 'headed for destruction! And twisting scriptures to make them fit against a certain theological view only makes one look childish and arrogant.

And he said that stuff in response to my post. I think I showed good restraint there by not responding to his insulting comments.

[BroRog]

This passage is not about Israel or the end times. In this passage Jesus is telling a parable about unclean spirits to draw an analogy with unbelief and rejection of the truth. The analogy applies to any person who hears the truth of the Gospel (or any well reasoned argument) and rejects it.

[Diggindeeper]

This might be the most popular worldly application, but it isn't the accurate application.

Noone changes himself into being a clean man. Jesus Christ and His shed blood does all the cleaning of any repentant sinner.

Bad theology.

All human beings were judged at the cross, and noone was set aside.

Romans 11 doesn't show anyone being block from the cross; but rather, it shows that the faithful branches are not cast off but are graffed in and partake of the fatness of the tree.

Any Israelite has been welcomed to partake of the fatness of the tree, and of the free gift of salvation throughout the last 2000 years and will continue to be welcomed forever more, as long as sin plagues the earth.

More bad assumptions, reading things into the texts that aren't in there, and that don't have anything to do with Matthew 12:43-45.

There is no new apostle, nor any new age.

There have been many apostles, and many teachers, and preachers, and shares of the grace of God; that has spanned all human history. The only 'age' that the New Testament knows of, is the age to come which is the age of eternal life for all who belong to Christ, and eternal damnation for those who reject Christ.

Nothing in the New Testament mentions a 7 year tribulation period. Nothing in the New Testament, nor in Revelation 18 or 20, speak of a future Israel being demon possessed.

Your Pauline Dispensationalism doctrines have you really messed up Dan. You should consider the notion of 'stop' trying to teach everyone else, and start listening, and asking questions....so that others can help you abandon and recover from this really bad and unsound doctrine (Paulineism) that you've picked up.

The above is from post #2 and I agree. No where in scripture was anyone 'set aside'.

Also, as for a set time period called the 'Dispensation of the Grace of God', nobody told Noah he was out of bounds. Noah found grace in the eyes of God thousands of years ago!!