Satan is released and deceives the nations Rev 20:8

[Desperaux]

LOL

Yep. That's right. The "millennium" is of the first heaven and first earth age, because that's the age which contains death, yes?

It is the post-Church, post-Second Coming MILLENNIAL AGE! Death will still take mortal people who live in that time.

[divaD]

And you have agreed already that the "millennium" contains death.

Yep.

Death.

((((((Sigh)))))))) Since Isaiah 65 seems to be parallel with some of Rev 21, why then does Isaiah 65 infer the opposite? Why can't the point be that it is only within the city where there is no more death? There's obviously a without the city, since there are gates to the city. And Rev 21 or 22, don't recall offhand, does say that without the city, meaning outside of it, there are dogs, etc. Why mention that, if there weren't any, in relation to the city itself?

[divaD]

Well, perhaps is it time finally to explain what I mean when I indicate that Rev. 20:4-6 are VISION verses:



Now, when I indicate that Rev. 20:4-6 are VISION verses, I mean that these verses were written by John to express primarily to the readers of his day some important truth--truth that would achieve relevancy with what many of them were already experiencing: martyrdom by the beast of that time. What important truth would that be?

Well, whatever truth it would be, that truth would have to provide encouragement to the saints to continue in faith so as to receive a special vindication from God as they would continue to defy the beast of those days, yes? And remember, the beast did the following to people of faith, yes (in the verse below)?



Yep. And when we should expect the martyred saints of those days to remain DEAD, the scripture indicates that they actually are LIVING and Ruling--while being DEAD physically.

Yep. They LIVED and Ruled while being DEAD.

In other words, DEATH for the people of faith is resurrection for the people of faith. This is what it means to truly overcome the beast--even to gain VICTORY over the beast. This is what it mean to have (hath) part in the first resurrection:



Indeed, this is what the VISION of Rev. 20:4-6 is explaining (remember, John was not shown everything, and therefore, he did not write down everything).

And remember, there have been many people of faith that have defied the beast before our time already. I mean, they died by martyrdom only because they were not deceived by the false prophet to worship the beast, right? And since we are in the year 2011 right now, then the saints of John's time who have died as martyrs already (for example) have been NOW ruling with Christ for quite a while . . .

And it seems that when we remember all of this, that's how we can suggest that the "1000 years" can not be "earth-time-clock-time" literal.

Finally, the point of the VISION of Rev. 20:4-6 is let the saints KNOW what DEAD people are NOW doing during our current age: ruling or not ruling with Christ and so on. Indeed, the notion that the verses of Rev. 20:4-6 deal with what happens during the age of the eternal state is NEVER in view at all: at least, not in terms of what we should be learning from the VISION . . .

Does this make sense?

It makes sense, but it wouldn't be the same perspective I would be coming from. For example.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I would think John would be seeing this vision at the conclusion of the present age. IOW, at the beginning of the next age. What transpired in the previous age?

were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

This all occurred in the previous age, which then infers that the beginning of the 1000 years would be a new age.

[billy-brown 2]

It is the post-Church, post-Second Coming MILLENNIAL AGE! Death will still take mortal people who live in that time.

Desperaux,

Is not death abolished at Christ's (Second) Coming--as taught here?

I Cor. 15
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

//

51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

And so, death would not be possible after "the end" of this age occurs--at least, that's what Paul is explaining. So, after death is abolished, it is tossed into the lake of fire:

Rev. 20
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

And of course, the new heavens and new earth would occur thereafter, since there are only two ages:

Rev. 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

Do you agree?

[Desperaux]

Desperaux,

Is not death abolished at Christ's (Second) Coming--as taught here?

And so, death would not be possible after "the end" of this age occurs--at least, that's what Paul is explaining. So, after death is abolished, it is tossed into the lake of fire:

Not yet. If you would kindly read the whole Book, you will know that death is abolished at Judgment Day. Seeing as death occurs during the Millennium, which is not the New Earth, you must deduce that you have misapprehended the word of God and realize that the Second Coming of Christ does not abolish physical death.

And of course, the new heavens and new earth would occur thereafter, since there are only two ages:



Do you agree?

What two ages? There are many ages!

When you finally post something that shows that you understand the word of God and have a legitimate question, rather than a bunch of LOL's and a reiteration of all that you have ever said before, I may respond.

[billy-brown 2]

It makes sense, but it wouldn't be the same perspective I would be coming from. For example.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I would think John would be seeing this vision at the conclusion of the present age. IOW, at the beginning of the next age. What transpired in the previous age?

were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

This all occurred in the previous age, which then infers that the beginning of the 1000 years would be a new age.

Well, if this (in bold below) transpired in the previous age

were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

then it had to have occurred when Satan was bound, because the "time" is the same, so to speak:

Rev. 20
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Why?

Because BOTH groups in the verses above are DEAD. Yep:

1) beheaded martyrs--these are DEAD (Rev. 20:4)
2) But the rest . . . of the DEAD (Rev 20:5)

And the rest . . . of the DEAD did not live again until the "1000 years" were finished.

Indeed, there is only ONE "1000 years"--so, does this not map into the following?

Rev. 20
2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

[billy-brown 2]

What two ages? There are many ages!

When you finally post something that shows that you understand the word of God and have a legitimate question, rather than a bunch of LOL's and a reiteration of all that you have ever said before, I may respond.

Desperaux,

When I mention that there are two ages, I was referring only to this passage from from Jesus Christ Himself:

Luke 20
34Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
35but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

And so, I cannot imagine that Jesus' words are contradictory to what Paul mentions here (in bold below):

Eph. 2
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

[billy-brown 2]

Not yet. If you would kindly read the whole Book, you will know that death is abolished at Judgment Day. Seeing as death occurs during the Millennium, which is not the New Earth, you must deduce that you have misapprehended the word of God and realize that the Second Coming of Christ does not abolish physical death.

Desperaux,

Are you aware that the word "abolished" in I Cor. 15: 24 and 26 is the word "katargeo" in the Greek--it means "render inoperative"; it does not mean "wiped from existence" at all. You can read it for yourself below from Strongs and so on:

2673. katargeó

2674 >>

---

katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish Original Word: καταργέω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: katargeó Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o) Short Definition: I bring to naught, sever, abolish Definition: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from. 2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idledown, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith). ["2673 (katargéō) means 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,' according to TDNT (1.453)" (J. Rodman Williams, Renewal Theology "God, the World & Redemption," 389).]

And so, here are the passages in question again:

I Cor. 15
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

//

51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

Indeed, to "abolish" death means simply to have Christ provide for His people the ultimate reward for faith: bodily resurrection unto immortality. This is the way that death is "abolished"--or "made inoperative" indeed. And this happens at the Second Coming of Christ--as taught in I Cor. 15.

Additionally, the verses below indicates that Christ Himself "abolished" death by rising from the dead unto immortality also--as the first fruits of I Cor. 15:

2 Tim. 1
8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
10but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

Yes?

[divaD]

Well, if this (in bold below) transpired in the previous age



then it had to have occurred when Satan was bound, because the "time" is the same, so to speak:



Why?

Because BOTH groups in the verses above are DEAD. Yep:



And the rest . . . of the DEAD did not live again until the "1000 years" were finished.

Indeed, there is only ONE "1000 years"--so, does this not map into the following?

But the rest of the dead would have to be those not of the 1st resurrection. Clearly 2 groups here. The rest of the dead can never be the same as those that were beheaded, etc. Because those that were beheaded come to life again, while the rest of the dead remain dead the entire time. For example, assuming you would be correct, why wouldn't those that were beheaded not be alive when they entered heaven?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You're implying they did the following first...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. When the text is implying that because they first were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, they then lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years because of that. In your view, the beast doesn't even seem to exist, since you can't explain how someone can live and reign with Christ 1000 years, yet not have to get over the beast in order to do so, as per the text.

Why do you have the cart before the horse, so to speak? I realize you all despise premil with a passion, but at least we premils are trying to stick to the text, be we right or wrong. I OTOH don't despise amil, postmil, etc, in the least. I just don't see you exactly sticking to the text. In Rev 20:4, the text indicates that they had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, before they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. I'm no English major, but I would think 'had not worshipped ' infers past tense, in relation to the 1000 years, and not present or future tense, in relation to the 1000 years.

[Desperaux]

Desperaux,

When I mention that there are two ages, I was referring only to this passage from from Jesus Christ Himself:



And so, I cannot imagine that Jesus' words are contradictory to what Paul mentions here (in bold below):

In the Millennial Era, there will be no marriage among the redeemed, who will have already been changed into immortality. there will be mortal people living and repopulating the Earth during that time----marrying and providing offspring for 1000 years!

The only contradiction is your own interpretation.

[Desperaux]

Indeed, to "abolish" death means simply to have Christ provide for His people the ultimate reward for faith: bodily resurrection unto immortality. This is the way that death is "abolished"--or "made inoperative" indeed. And this happens at the Second Coming of Christ--as taught in I Cor. 15.

Additionally, the verses below indicates that Christ Himself "abolished" death by rising from the dead unto immortality also--as the first fruits of I Cor. 15:



Yes?

That final abolition of death takes place at the final Judgment, long after Jesus will have returned. For us, His people, death will be no more a power over us because we will have already been changed into immortality and glory at the Rapture---the first resurrection.

[billy-brown 2]

In the Millennial Era, there will be no marriage among the redeemed, who will have already been changed into immortality. there will be mortal people living and repopulating the Earth during that time----marrying and providing offspring for 1000 years!

The only contradiction is your own interpretation.

Desperaux,

Well, here are the words of Jesus on this:

Luke 20
34Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,

35but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

36for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

And so, here's some of what we can glean from this passage:

1) Jesus is teaching us that the resurrection from the dead is the dividing point between "this" age and "that" age.
2) Jesus is teaching us that "this" age has marriage available to it.
3) Jesus is teaching us that "that" age does not have death.
4) Jesus is teaching us that those who attain to "that" age are immortal people of faith. In other words, these are the wheat as gathered in the barn of the Lord at harvest time--which is at the end of this age. And remember, the tares are gathered at the end of this age as well and burned--there are no survivors to repopulate anything:

Matt. 13
24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25“But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26“But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27“The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
28“And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
29“But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

//

36Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.*

And there are only two kinds of people according to Jesus: the wheat (the righteous) and the tares (the unrighteous) . . . that's it . . .

[Desperaux]

Desperaux,

Well, here are the words of Jesus on this:



And so, here's some of what we can glean from this passage:

1) Jesus is teaching us that the resurrection from the dead is the dividing point between "this" age and "that" age.
2) Jesus is teaching us that "this" age has marriage available to it.
3) Jesus is teaching us that "that" age does not have death.
4) Jesus is teaching us that those who attain to "that" age are immortal people of faith. In other words, these are the wheat as gathered in the barn of the Lord at harvest time--which is at the end of this age. And remember, the tares are gathered at the end of this age as well and burned--there are no survivors to repopulate anything:



And there are only two kinds of people according to Jesus: the wheat (the righteous) and the tares (the unrighteous) . . . that's it . . .

This is a false apprehension of Scripture. We, His people will not have need of marriage or the act of marriage because we will already be glorified and changed into incorruptible bodies at the furst resurrection. During the ensuing Millennial Age there will be mortals living on earth that we will be governing! These people will be marrying and repopulating the Earth.

There is another era you are forgetting about, which comes after the Millennium, and after the GWT Judgment---the New Earth. Everyone who remains after that point will be glorified.

[billy-brown 2]

But the rest of the dead would have to be those not of the 1st resurrection. Clearly 2 groups here. The rest of the dead can never be the same as those that were beheaded, etc. Because those that were beheaded come to life again, while the rest of the dead remain dead the entire time. For example, assuming you would be correct, why wouldn't those that were beheaded not be alive when they entered heaven?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You're implying they did the following first...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. When the text is implying that because they first were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, they then lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years because of that. In your view, the beast doesn't even seem to exist, since you can't explain how someone can live and reign with Christ 1000 years, yet not have to get over the beast in order to do so, as per the text.

Why do you have the cart before the horse, so to speak? I realize you all despise premil with a passion, but at least we premils are trying to stick to the text, be we right or wrong. I OTOH don't despise amil, postmil, etc, in the least. I just don't see you exactly sticking to the text. In Rev 20:4, the text indicates that they had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, before they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. I'm no English major, but I would think 'had not worshipped ' infers past tense, in relation to the 1000 years, and not present or future tense, in relation to the 1000 years.

I feel that you are missing what I am saying . . . also, I love all the ". . . mills" and despise none of them . . .

And I hope that I am sticking to the text of Rev. 20:4-6 and so on . . . let's see if you agree that I do that below:

1) The beheaded martyrs died by the hands of the beast indeed: this is the first group of DEAD people (Rev. 20:4).

2) Then John writes the following in Rev. 20:6--"But the rest . . . of the DEAD": this is the second group of DEAD people (Rev. 20:5).

In other words, Rev. 20:4-5 deals two groups of DEAD people . . . The DEAD martyrs, and the rest ( . . . of the DEAD).

And so, John indicates that the first group of DEAD people (the beheaded martyrs) lived and reigned with Christ and so on. However, since John saw their souls in the vision, this would mean that they were still DEAD physically.

Do you see what I mean?

(This is all that I am seeking to mention in this . . .)

[jeffweeder]

In the Millennial Era, there will be no marriage among the redeemed, who will have already been changed into immortality. there will be mortal people living and repopulating the Earth during that time----marrying and providing offspring for 1000 years!

Why do you believe that mortal people will be left to repopulate?
What happened to all the people prior to this repopulation process?
According to Jesus and Paul, when Christ returns to immortalise his redeemed , the wicked will be eternally banished...so who is left that is mortal to repopulate?