Satan is released and deceives the nations Rev 20:8

[John 8:32]

If second death is eternal punishment, yes

The second death is death for all eternity. No consciousness, total oblivion. We are not immortal souls, the wicked die. They do not hang around for eternity suffering. Only God has immortality and only those who put on immortality have it...

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[quiet dove]

The second death is death for all eternity. No consciousness, total oblivion. We are not immortal souls, the wicked die. They do not hang around for eternity suffering. Only God has immortality and only those who put on immortality have it...

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

1 Cor is speaking of resurrection and in regards to our being given new bodies that will be incorruptible and immortal. It is not speaking of our soul/spirit

1Ti says that God alone has life in Himself, we do not, but that is not saying we were not created by Him to live on after these bodies die. We do not have life within ourselves, but it is entirely possible that God could create us in such a way as our soul/spirit live on after our bodies are gone. God alone then able to destroy the soul in Hell. Part of us is going somewhere, one way or the other, after our mortal bodies die. Matt 10:28 just says God is able to destroy the soul, not that He will in regards to punishment not being everlasting. Everlasting punishment would be the destruction of the soul, perpetually.

[John 8:32]

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal fire, huh?

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

S & G still burning today? The punishment was everlasting and eternal, but it does not continue into eternity.

1 Cor is speaking of resurrection and in regards to our being given new bodies that will be incorruptible and immortal. It is not speaking of our soul/spirit

That soul/spirit is not immortal...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

kill...

G615
ἀποκτείνω
apokteinō
ap-ok-ti'-no
From G575 and κτείνω kteinō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively to destroy: - put to death, kill, slay.

Don't fear those who cannot kill the soul, the implied meaning is that God can kill the soul and furthermore says so in the next breath...

but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy...

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

1Ti says that God alone has life in Himself, we do not, but that is not saying we were not created by Him to live on after these bodies die. We do not have life within ourselves, but it is entirely possible that God could create us in such a way as our soul/spirit live on after our bodies are gone. God alone then able to destroy the soul in Hell. Part of us is going somewhere, one way or the other, after our mortal bodies die. Matt 10:28 just says God is able to destroy the soul, not that He will in regards to punishment not being everlasting. Everlasting punishment would be the destruction of the soul, perpetually.

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

We may put on immortality at the resurrection of life, but we do not possess it. We are mortal...

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

God is not just speaking of the husk surrounding our soul, He is speaking of us, who we are. The body that is raised is not this body we have now...

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

If God were going to raise this body we have now, and unite it with a soul, then it would now appear what we shall be, but it doesn't because this body is not raised to unite with the soul.

We are resurrected from the dead.

[billy-brown 2]

If second death is eternal punishment, yes

Yep . . . the second death is eternal punishment indeed . . .

Yay!

[billy-brown 2]

The second death is death for all eternity. No consciousness, total oblivion. We are not immortal souls, the wicked die. They do not hang around for eternity suffering. Only God has immortality and only those who put on immortality have it...

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

In the furnace of fire, there will be weeping, yes?

Matt. 13
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[John 8:32]

In the furnace of fire, there will be weeping, yes?

Right up until the point of being changed to ashes under the souls of the righteous feet.

[billy-brown 2]

In another thread I made note of the following, except no one wanted to tackle it apparently. Maybe someone can tackle this in this thread?

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


If this is to be understood as the 2nd coming, then this would imply no living suvivors, the fact it plainly says...and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So if they were all devoured by the fire, and if this is supposed to be parallel with the latter portions of Rev 19, then why do we see the following in Rev 19?

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Logically, how can they be cast alive into the LOF if they were supposed to have been devoured by fire from God out of heaven in Rev 20? That would be like concluding, when God rained fire down on Sodom and Gomorrah and devoured them, that none of them really literally died. Yet Rev 19 clearly says the beast, and the false prophet were taken, but not only that, but taken alive, since they are seen as being cast into the LOF alive. While Rev 20 clearly says...and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Well, here goes . . .

The text in bold above is part of the context of the OP.

(We have one of those, you know . . . )

And the next verse indicates the following:

Rev. 20
10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And apparently, the "torment" element in Rev. 20:10 means that there will be some sense of "spiritual existence (?)" for those who are tossed in the lake of fire; after all, there will be weeping in the furnace of fire, yes?

Matt. 13 (Jesus is speaking)
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And apparently, the following will be in the furnace of fire forever:

1) false prophet
2) beast
3) wicked
4) Satan
5) death
6) hell

Yes?

[billy-brown 2]

Right up until the point of being changed to ashes under the souls of the righteous feet.

Let's look at this again . . . don't miss this . . .

In the furnace of fire, there will be weeping, yes?

Matt. 13 (Jesus is speaking)
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[John146]

it is reconciled in my mind...just as you consider your views reconciled in your mind...the problem is we disagree with what the other considers reconciled

Can you show me where Jesus ever indicated that any of the wicked would be cast into the fire at a time besides His coming in glory at the end of the age?

[John 8:32]

Let's look at this again . . . don't miss this . . .

In the furnace of fire, there will be weeping, yes?

Matt. 13 (Jesus is speaking)
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

How long do you suppose that weeping and gnashing of teeth lasts? Show some scripture.

[billy-brown 2]

How long do you suppose that weeping and gnashing of teeth lasts? Show some scripture.

Let's look at this again . . . don't miss this . . .

In the furnace of fire, there will be weeping, yes?

Matt. 13 (Jesus is speaking)
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Well, sure . . .

Rev. 20
10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matt. 13
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 25
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels . . . :

Matt. 25
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Yep.

The "punishment of torment" in the lake of fire is everlasting--it is day and night forever and ever.

And that's a looooooooooong time . . .

Yes?

[divaD]

Well, here goes . . .

The text in bold above is part of the context of the OP.

(We have one of those, you know . . . )

And the next verse indicates the following:



And apparently, the "torment" element in Rev. 20:10 means that there will be some sense of "spiritual existence (?)" for those who are tossed in the lake of fire; after all, there will be weeping in the furnace of fire, yes?



And apparently, the following will be in the furnace of fire forever:

1) false prophet
2) beast
3) wicked
4) Satan
5) death
6) hell

Yes?

BB2, how does this answer the fact the beast and false prophet are cast alive into the LOF? Wouldn't that imply they weren't devoured by fire from God out of heaven? But if they were devoured by fire from God out of heaven, wouldn't that then imply they would no longer be alive at that point? Yet Rev 19 states that the beast and false prophet are still alive when they are cast into the LOF. Obviously then, Revelation 19 and 20 aren't parallel accounts, but chronological accounts instead.


Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Not everyone is dead here.


Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Everyone is dead here.


Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Everyone is dead here.

So then, Revelation 19:20 contradicts Revelation 20:9 if these are parallel events. But if they're chronological events, then no contradictions. IOW..and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them...equals not one single survivor. And this would include the beast and false prophet if they too went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about. Except Revelation 19:20 tells us these two were captured alive, and while still alive they are then cast into the LOF.

[John146]

BB2, how does this answer the fact the beast and false prophet are cast alive into the LOF? Wouldn't that imply they weren't devoured by fire from God out of heaven? But if they were devoured by fire from God out of heaven, wouldn't that then imply they would no longer be alive at that point? Yet Rev 19 states that the beast and false prophet are still alive when they are cast into the LOF. Obviously then, Revelation 19 and 20 aren't parallel accounts, but chronological accounts instead.

Remember, the beast and false prophet/second beast are symbolic entities. So, just because it describes them as being alive doesn't mean they represent living people. Even death and Hades will be cast into the LOF (Rev 20:14) so it's not as though only living beings can be cast into the LOF. I believe the beast and false prophet/second beast represent kingdoms rather than people so if that's the case then that solves the issues that you're talking about from my perspective. I believe the onus is on you to show that the beast and false prophet/second beast represent living people. Can you do that? Remember, the beast has been around a long time already (Rev 17:8) so I think it's pretty unreasonable to try to claim that the beast represents a person or a group of people.

[divaD]

Remember, the beast and false prophet/second beast are symbolic entities. So, just because it describes them as being alive doesn't mean they represent living people. Even death and Hades will be cast into the LOF (Rev 20:14) so it's not as though only living beings can be cast into the LOF.

I recall you making these points, but I have since then done some pondering.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If this had said...And death and hell were cast ALIVE into the lake of fire. This is the second death...then I would see your point as being more valid. But since it didn't say this in this verse, but did state it in the beast and false prophet verse, then the conclusion I'm coming to, the beast and false prophet symbolizes live entities. Maybe spiritual enties, maybe human entities, but live entities nonetheless, and not just a concept like we see in Revelation 20:14.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This is what the text says. But if it would have said the following instead, then that would be another story.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Now perhaps it could be debatable, using Revelation 20:14 to make the point. But I don't see what there is to debate since the Scripture clearly says they are cast in alive. Why even mention they were alive if it has no real significance to anything?

[John 8:32]

Well, sure . . . :p






Yep.

The "punishment of torment" in the lake of fire is everlasting--it is day and night forever and ever.

And that's a looooooooooong time . . .

Yes?

Hmmm, just like Sodom and Gomorrah, yes?

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

where would that fire be located today?