Satan is released and deceives the nations Rev 20:8

[quiet dove]

But the problem with what you're saying here is that people will not be inheriting temporary life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world, they will be inheriting eternal life.

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

How do you reconcile this with your view? How does your view match what Jesus said in Matt 25:31-46, which is that at His coming the righteous will inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world? You have them inheriting temporary life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world.

They will have inherited eternal life, just as you and I have, but that does not mean that they will not continue on the earth, just as you and I ,at present are doing. And, like us, will also at some point enter eternity.(Rev 20:11-15). Only those in Christ Jesus will enter the Millennial kingdom. (I know you are amil, but this issue is a big difference between pre and post trib)

Those verses in Matt do not state any more than the final fate of the unrighteous, and indeed, eternal punishment will be their fate, but just as I stated regarding Rev 20, many are killed, but only the AC and FP are tossed in the LOF at that time. Just because these goats are removed, does not mean this is their final judgment, just as there are many who have died without Christ who at present still await their final court hearing before the GWTJ and thus their final fate.

[divaD]

I tried telling you this before and I don't think you ever responded. If the beast was a physically alive entity at the second coming of Christ, such as an evil Antichrist person, then he would have to be thousands of years old by now since "the beast was" (Rev 17:8) even before John wrote the book. How do you reconcile this?

Ok...you make some good points here. You do excel in that regard, no doubt. Let me think on it a bit. As of now, I don't have much of an answer. Maybe something will come to me as I ponder this a little more. No promises tho. But what you said about this beast being an evil Antichrist person, then he would have to be thousands of years old by now, that wouldn't be my main thing to try and figure out, since I'm thinking the beast represents many people, and not just one person in specific. If beasts equal kingdoms, then I would think kingdoms equals people. Not much of a kingdom if there are no people within it. So if this kingdom existed thousands of years ago, and those people at the time, are long dead and gone, there would still be people as of Rev 19 who would be part of this kingdom, who are not long dead and gone yet.

[John146]

They will have inherited eternal life, just as you and I have, but that does not mean that they will not continue on the earth, just as you and I ,at present are doing. And, like us, will also at some point enter eternity.(Rev 20:11-15). Only those in Christ Jesus will enter the Millennial kingdom. (I know you are amil, but this issue is a big difference between pre and post trib)

But the context is of the life they have in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. Are you not saying they are inheriting life in that kingdom? Their life in that kingdom would not be eternal in your view because they would die at some point during the millennium. If they are inheriting eternal life in the same sense that we obtain eternal life upon putting our faith in Christ and being saved then wouldn't they have already obtained eternal life before inheriting the kingdom if they were saved even before inheriting the kingdom? That wouldn't match up with what Jesus said because He indicated that they would inherit eternal life at the time they inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world, not before that.

Those verses in Matt do not state any more than the final fate of the unrighteous, and indeed, eternal punishment will be their fate, but just as I stated regarding Rev 20, many are killed, but only the AC and FP are tossed in the LOF at that time. Just because these goats are removed, does not mean this is their final judgment, just as there are many who have died without Christ who at present still await their final court hearing before the GWTJ and thus their final fate.

The goats will not just be removed they will be cast into "everlasting fire" at that point. If the "everlasting fire" is not the lake of fire then what is it? Some temporary holding place even besides Hades where the wicked will await their judgment?

[John146]

Ok...you make some good points here. You do excel in that regard, no doubt. Let me think on it a bit. As of now, I don't have much of an answer. Maybe something will come to me as I ponder this a little more. No promises tho. But what you said about this beast being an evil Antichrist person, then he would have to be thousands of years old by now, that wouldn't be my main thing to try and figure out, since I'm thinking the beast represents many people, and not just one person in specific. If beasts equal kingdoms, then I would think kingdoms equals people. Not much of a kingdom if there are no people within it. So if this kingdom existed thousands of years ago, and those people at the time, are long dead and gone, there would still be people as of Rev 19 who would be part of this kingdom, who are not long dead and gone yet.

Ah, but the book of Revelation differentiates between the beast itself and those who worship the beast. The reference to the beast only refers to the kingdom itself, not the people who worship the beast, which would be those who are part of the kingdom. Rev 19 doesn't say those who worship the beast are cast alive into the LOF it only says the beast itself is cast alive into the LOF.

[quiet dove]

Quote Originally Posted by quiet dove View Post
Not IMHO, because as I said, death being abolished for the resurrected/changed, does not require death having been thrown in the LOF

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

I believe Paul was not just speaking of death being abolished for the resurrected/changed here but he was speaking of death itself being defeated at that point, which would go along with what he had said earlier in the chapter:

1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Once death itself is defeated/destroyed then it can be said that "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?". Death being swallowed up in victory was prophesied here:

Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Now, compare that verse to the following verse:

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I see a direct connection between 1 Cor 15:54, Isa 25:8 and Rev 21:4 and that tells me that the time when God wipes the tears from everyone's eyes is when "death is swallowed up in victory" which will result in "no more death". It makes sense to me that death being swallowed up in victory would mean that it will have been defeated/destroyed at that point and with death being defeated there could then "be no more death".

Isaiah is speaking to Israel and Paul is speaking to the church, so the audience must be considered.

Isaiah speaking to Israel is in the midst of many prophecies, some more immediate and not good. God tended to, even in the midst of pronouncing judgement, also provide hope for His people. I interpret these verses to speak of the same thousand years as mentioned in Revelation, the Millennium.

Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined. 7 And he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken. 9 It will be said on that day, "Behold, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for him; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation."

covering: within this OT context speaks clearly of sorrow, added to veil, there is a thick covering of sorrow that will be removed(2Sam 15:30; 19:4; & Jer 14:3-4 for comparison of the meaning)
that day: the day they know Jesus, and seeing His Second Advent, mourn the One whom they pierce

Isa 65:17-25 where similar language is used, including new heaven and earth, but the context and audience determines the interpretation, not similar wording found elsewhere in the Bible. The earth under the Millennial reign of Christ will indeed not be the same as we have now, and that is what I believe Isaiah speaks of. The righteous will have inherited eternity in that they will not die, but the unrighteous will die accursed at 100. After this time frame the GWTJ of Rev...

-----------------------------

In Corinthians the context is believers and the rapture. Regardless of the rapture one way of the other, from the context it seems to me the understanding of "death is swallowed up in victory" is realized when corruptible puts on incorruptible and mortal puts on immortality. There will be no death, there will be no sin....there will be no sting of death at that point for those either resurrected or changed, regardless if the earth continues with a Millennial reign.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY." :55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING? O HADES, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

[quiet dove]

But the context is of the life they have in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. Are you not saying they are inheriting life in that kingdom? Their life in that kingdom would not be eternal in your view because they would die at some point during the millennium. If they are inheriting eternal life in the same sense that we obtain eternal life upon putting our faith in Christ and being saved then wouldn't they have already obtained eternal life before inheriting the kingdom if they were saved even before inheriting the kingdom? That wouldn't match up with what Jesus said because He indicated that they would inherit eternal life at the time they inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world, not before that.

The goats will not just be removed they will be cast into "everlasting fire" at that point. If the "everlasting fire" is not the lake of fire then what is it? Some temporary holding place even besides Hades where the wicked will await their judgment?

I don't think I said they would die in the Millennium, I said at the events of Rev 20 and the GWTJ they would enter Eternity.

As I said before, the eternal punishement is the fate of the lost, but that, as per Rev 19 does not mean they immediately go to that fate. They are however, removed from the earth, also as per Rev 19

[John146]

Isaiah is speaking to Israel and Paul is speaking to the church, so the audience must be considered.

Huh? How could Isaiah 25:8 refer to two different groups? Why shouldn't we just accept Paul's understanding of who the prophecy applies to? He relates it directly to the church, not Israel.

Isaiah speaking to Israel is in the midst of many prophecies, some more immediate and not good. God tended to, even in the midst of pronouncing judgement, also provide hope for His people. I interpret these verses to speak of the same thousand years as mentioned in Revelation, the Millennium.

Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined. 7 And he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken. 9 It will be said on that day, "Behold, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for him; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation."

How is this any different than what it says in Rev 21:1-4?

covering: within this OT context speaks clearly of sorrow, added to veil, there is a thick covering of sorrow that will be removed(2Sam 15:30; 19:4; & Jer 14:3-4 for comparison of the meaning)

Yeah, that occurs when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. There will be no more sorrow at that point.

In Corinthians the context is believers and the rapture.

But Paul applies Isaiah 25:8 directly to the time when Christ's coming and the rapture of His church occurs. Yet you are saying that verse applies to Israel? If it did then I believe Paul would have said so.

Regardless of the rapture one way of the other, from the context it seems to me the understanding of "death is swallowed up in victory" is realized when corruptible puts on incorruptible and mortal puts on immortality. There will be no death, there will be no sin....there will be no sting of death at that point for those either resurrected or changed, regardless if the earth continues with a Millennial reign.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY." :55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING? O HADES, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

But why would you not see a connection between death being swallowed up in victory and death being defeated (1 Cor 15:26). Death would not be swallowed up in victory if people continued to die after that. When you compare Isaiah 25:8 to Rev 21:4 you can see that what also occurs when death is swallowed up in victory is that God will wipe away the tears from off all faces. In Rev 21:4 we can see that when God wipes the tears away from off all faces there will be no more death at that point. Period. No more death for anyone because the last enemy, death itself, will be completely defeated at that point.

[John146]

I don't think I said they would die in the Millennium,

So, you believe those who inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepard from the foundation of the world at Christ's second coming (Matt 25:31-46) will not die during the supposed future earthly millennium? I thought your understanding of Isaiah 65:17-25 means that you believe they would die during that time?

I said at the events of Rev 20 and the GWTJ they would enter Eternity.

That's true but Matt 25:31-46 indicates that will occur around the time when Christ comes in His glory with His angels.

As I said before, the eternal punishement is the fate of the lost, but that, as per Rev 19 does not mean they immediately go to that fate. They are however, removed from the earth, also as per Rev 19

Where do you think they will go at that time then? Some other place besides Hades or the lake of fire? If so, I'm not aware of any teaching of the existence of such a place.

[divaD]

Huh? How could Isaiah 25:8 refer to two different groups? Why shouldn't we just accept Paul's understanding of who the prophecy applies to? He relates it directly to the church, not Israel.

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.


So then did Isaiah really mean the following instead?

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of THE CHURCH shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.


It all depends how we should understand..and the rebuke of. Is that meaning the LORD will remove His rebuke of His people, or is that meaning the LORD will remove those from the earth that have rebuked His people? If it's the latter, then the church could fit that context. but if it's the former, then I don't see how. Do you have any thoughts on this one way or the other?

[John146]

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.


So then did Isaiah really mean the following instead?

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of THE CHURCH shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Of course. Who are God's people except for those who are part of the church?

It all depends how we should understand..and the rebuke of. Is that meaning the LORD will remove His rebuke of His people, or is that meaning the LORD will remove those from the earth that have rebuked His people? If it's the latter, then the church could fit that context. but if it's the former, then I don't see how. Do you have any thoughts on this one way or the other?

Absolutely, I do. There's no question in my mind that it's the latter.

[quiet dove]

Huh? How could Isaiah 25:8 refer to two different groups? Why shouldn't we just accept Paul's understanding of who the prophecy applied to?

I am accepting and agreeing with what Paul said, and I am accepting and agreeing with what Isaiah said, my disagreement with your take on what they said is a different matter.

Isaia says "He" will swallow up death forever, but it says nothing about resurrection of any people. And as far as Christ is concerned, being resurrected, He has swallowed up death forever, not only speaking of Himself, but for all who will put their faith in Him. But it actually says nothing of resurrection in that passage. Paul quoting from it, and relates, also referencing Hosea for that matter, puts forth further revelation as Christ victory over death relates to the Body of Christ, believers will be resurrected, and not only the resurrection of the dead in Christ, but the living will be changed, both to incorruptible and immortal, and at that point the sting of death .... gone. Paul is not here saying that the resurrection or the rapture happen at the time described in Isaiah, but he is teaching resurrection for all who will trust Christ and through Christ men will indeed have His victory over death.

But Paul applies Isaiah 25:8 directly to the time when Christ's coming and the rapture of His church occurs. Yet you are saying that verse applies to Israel? If it did then I believe Paul would have said so.

Paul, teaching about resurrection in general quotes and regarding the mystery of the rapture, and the resurrection/change as it pertains to the saints involved with both. Had Paul been teaching about the Millennial in Corinthians maybe he would have mentioned Isaiah in that light, but he wasn't, he was teaching about and revealing mysteries about about resurrection as it relates to the believer in Christ using Isaiah as support for Christ prophecied victory over death. Will there be a resurrection at the time spoken of in Isaiah, yes, the resurrection of those martyred during the GT, as per Revelation 20.

But why would you not see a connection between death being swallowed up in victory and death being defeated (1 Cor 15:26). Death would not be swallowed up in victory if people continued to die after that. When you compare Isaiah 25:8 to Rev 21:4 you can see that what also occurs when death is swalloed up in victory is that God will wipe away the tears from off all faces. In Rev 21:4 we can see that when God wipes the tears away from off all faces there will be no more death at that point. Period. No more death for anyone because the last enemy, death itself, will be completely defeated at that point.

Just because both passages say same things will happen does not mean they are the same event. That is interpreting scripture based soley on similar words as opposed to the deeper things contained there in. The Millennial will be a time of blessing, no more war, very little death, or pain, disease, no hunger and so on. Obviously similar words are used to express the time of blessing. Rev 21 is even better as eterninty begins.
Your prophectic interpretation at this point is that we are here now, Jesus comes back, everyone from every time gets resurrected to one direction of the other...eternity starts?

And I am sorry, I see it as so many more things happening, namely the Millenial Kingdom. Genesis starts off with God's government upon the earth through men, Adam, who failes. God ends it with His government here earth through Christ. God will accomplish His purpose in that regard. And we know there is no doubt that Christ will never fail.

So, you believe those who inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepard from the foundation of the world at Christ's second coming (Matt 25:31-46) will not die during the supposed future earthly millennium? I thought your understanding of Isaiah 65:17-25 means that you believe they would die during that time?

This is what Isaiah 654 tells us
Isaiah 65:20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them. 24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.

This is either eternity or an earthly Millennial, I choose the latter

I said at the events of Rev 20 and the GWTJ they would enter Eternity.

That's true but Matt 25:31-46 indicates that will occur around the time when Christ comes in His glory with His angels.

According to your interpretation, but not according to mine.
As I said before, the eternal punishement is the fate of the lost, but that, as per Rev 19 does not mean they immediately go to that fate. They are however, removed from the earth, also as per Rev 19

Where do you think they will go at that time then? Some other place besides Hades or the lake of fire? If so, I'm not aware of any teaching of the existence of such a place.

Going to the same place a person goes now when they die and are not saved.

[Diggindeeper]

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

So then did Isaiah really mean the following instead?

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of THE CHURCH shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

It all depends how we should understand..and the rebuke of. Is that meaning the LORD will remove His rebuke of His people, or is that meaning the LORD will remove those from the earth that have rebuked His people? If it's the latter, then the church could fit that context. but if it's the former, then I don't see how. Do you have any thoughts on this one way or the other?

I say it means exactly what it says....

the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth

Why would anyone try to say this means either Israel or His church?? It means what it says, HIS PEOPLE! What is difficult about that to understand! His people are his people, regardless of what time period they live in! I am one of HIS PEOPLE. Even the Jewish people who are saved today are HIS PEOPLE. He had PEOPLE way back whenever, and he has PEOPLE today! He has ALWAYS had HIS PEOPLE!

Noah was HIS PEOPLE, just as I am HIS PEOPLE.

Just believe its HIS PEOPLE. Geesh.................

Me thinks we are dissecting the Word too much! Its like in a biology class when they dissect a frog till you can't tell what it was in the beginning.............. We're chopping up everything and suddenly, it does not make sense at all any more.

[billy-brown 2]

I say it means exactly what it says....


Why would anyone try to say this means either Israel or His church?? It means what it says, HIS PEOPLE! What is difficult about that to understand! His people are his people, regardless of what time period they live in! I am one of HIS PEOPLE. Even the Jewish people who are saved today are HIS PEOPLE. He had PEOPLE way back whenever, and he has PEOPLE today! He has ALWAYS had HIS PEOPLE!

Noah was HIS PEOPLE, just as I am HIS PEOPLE.

Just believe its HIS PEOPLE. Geesh.................

Me thinks we are dissecting the Word too much! Its like in a biology class when they dissect a frog till you can't tell what it was in the beginning.............. We're chopping up everything and suddenly, it does not make sense at all any more.

Yep . . .

This is the reason that our Savior made it simple.

Indeed, there are only 2 people groups on the earth:

1) the righteous (HIS PEOPLE-wheat) and
2) the wicked (NOT HIS PEOPLE--tares).

Indeed, that's all the "fish" that there is, yes?

Matt. 13
47“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And so, "the end of the age" is when the Lord will return with FIRE and abolish DEATH through the resurrection unto life eternal for HIS PEOPLE (wheat), and the resurrection unto damnation for NOT HIS PEOPLE (tares) occurs at the same time--at the "end of this age". And the "end of this age" is harvest time:

Matt. 13
1That day Jesus went out of the house and was sitting by the sea.

2And large crowds gathered to Him, so He got into a boat and sat down, and the whole crowd was standing on the beach.

3And He spoke many things to them in parables . . .

//

36Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,

38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

[John146]

I am accepting and agreeing with what Paul said, and I am accepting and agreeing with what Isaiah said, my disagreement with your take on what they said is a different matter.

That's fair. I didn't mean to imply that you would purposely accept what one said and not the other.

Isaia says "He" will swallow up death forever, but it says nothing about resurrection of any people.

Yes, but is Isaiah 25:8 not the OT verse that Paul is referencing in 1 Cor 15:54? Paul applies it to when the dead are resurrected and we're all changed so how could the verse be speaking of anything else besides that? The "He" who will swallow up death in victory is Christ. His climactic return will put an end to sin and death once and for all.

And as far as Christ is concerned, being resurrected, He has swallowed up death forever, not only speaking of Himself, but for all who will put their faith in Him. But it actually says nothing of resurrection in that passage.

Why does it need to? Paul says it relates to the resurrection of the dead and all of us being changed at Christ's coming so whether or not the passage itself spells that out doesn't matter. That's why we need the NT. It makes clear the things that were not made clear in the OT.

Paul quoting from it, and relates, also referencing Hosea for that matter, puts forth further revelation as Christ victory over death relates to the Body of Christ, believers will be resurrected, and not only the resurrection of the dead in Christ, but the living will be changed, both to incorruptible and immortal, and at that point the sting of death .... gone. Paul is not here saying that the resurrection or the rapture happen at the time described in Isaiah

I completely disagree. He said "when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.".

Paul makes it very clear here that at the time "when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality" then at that time the prophecy from Isaiah 25:8 that says "Death is swallowed up in victory" (Paul was paraphrasing) will be fulfilled. How can you say that it will be fulfilled at any other time except "when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality", which we know will occur at Christ's coming at the last trumpet?

Just because both passages say same things will happen does not mean they are the same event. That is interpreting scripture based soley on similar words as opposed to the deeper things contained there in. The Millennial will be a time of blessing, no more war, very little death, or pain, disease, no hunger and so on. Obviously similar words are used to express the time of blessing. Rev 21 is even better as eterninty begins.
Your prophectic interpretation at this point is that we are here now, Jesus comes back, everyone from every time gets resurrected to one direction of the other...eternity starts?

And I am sorry, I see it as so many more things happening, namely the Millenial Kingdom. Genesis starts off with God's government upon the earth through men, Adam, who failes. God ends it with His government here earth through Christ. God will accomplish His purpose in that regard. And we know there is no doubt that Christ will never fail.

I'm sorry, but this is very unconvincing. So, you're saying that when Isaiah 25:8 says "the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces" that has no direct relation to when Rev 21:4 says "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes"? If we can't even directly relate those two verses then how can we ever relate two verses or passages together? Even when Paul specifically says that the time when the dead are resurrected and we are all changed will result in the prophecy regarding death being swallowed up in victory you try to say that he is not giving the timing of the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8 in that verse (1 Cor 15:54).

This is what Isaiah 654 tells us
Isaiah 65:20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them. 24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.

This is either eternity or an earthly Millennial, I choose the latter

It's related to the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth, which is made clear in verse 17. But what Peter makes clear in 2 Peter 3:10-13 and what John makes clear in Rev 21:1-4 about the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth is that it's not a gradual process but rather results upon the passing away/burning up of the heavens and the earth as we know it. And the result of the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth is a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13) and where there will be "no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain". But you have wickedness, death, sorrow, crying and pain still being in existence when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in.

According to your interpretation, but not according to mine.
As I said before, the eternal punishement is the fate of the lost, but that, as per Rev 19 does not mean they immediately go to that fate. They are however, removed from the earth, also as per Rev 19

Going to the same place a person goes now when they die and are not saved.

Okay, we really need to discuss this in more detail because I believe you are missing something here. The place where the wicked currently go when they die is obviously Hades (Luke 16:19-31). So, this means you are saying that when Jesus has the goats/wicked cast "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) you are saying that the "everlasting fire" is referring to Hades. But that can't be. Hades is not "everlasting". It will be cast into the lake of fire as we can see here:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The only "everlasting fire" will be the lake of fire, not Hades. So, Matt 25:41 has to be referring to the lake of fire and not Hades. Also, the place prepared for the devil and his angels is not Hades, but the lake of fire. We can see from Rev 20:10 that the lake of fire is Satan's eventual destiny, not Hades. Please tell me how you can reconcile what I've pointed out here with your view, if you can.

[quiet dove]

That's fair. I didn't mean to imply that you would purposely accept what one said and not the other.

No worries.

Yes, but is Isaiah 25:8 not the OT verse that Paul is referencing in 1 Cor 15:54? Paul applies it to when the dead are resurrected and we're all changed so how could the verse be speaking of anything else besides that? The "He" who will swallow up death in victory is Christ. His climactic return will put an end to sin and death once and for all.

Why does it need to? Paul says it relates to the resurrection of the dead and all of us being changed at Christ's coming so whether or not the passage itself spells that out doesn't matter. That's why we need the NT. It makes clear the things that were not made clear in the OT.

Isaiah is stating what the Redeemer will do, or accomplish. In Corinthians, Paul uses that truth to reveal to the Corinthian believers, and of course everyone else, how what the redeemer has accomplished and how that then relates to believers. I agree, the NT is revealing light upon the OT, I just disagree with you regarding what is being revealed and why.

I completely disagree. He said "when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.".

If, hypothetically, you and I were 'changed' this very instant, incorruptible and immortal. Would not at that instant, for us, "death be swallowed up in victory"?

Paul makes it very clear here that at the time "when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality" then at that time the prophecy from Isaiah 25:8 that says "Death is swallowed up in victory" (Paul was paraphrasing) will be fulfilled. How can you say that it will be fulfilled at any other time except "when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality", which we know will occur at Christ's coming at the last trumpet?

I disagree. Paul is saying at the moment of this change, what is stated in Isaiah will be what has been accomplished by Christ, fully realized by the believer. I agree that when this resurrection/change happens the saying will come to pass, I just don't agree that Pauls words are demanding the timing, because as I said.... whenever resurrection/change happens, the saying is realized.

I'm sorry, but this is very unconvincing. So, you're saying that when Isaiah 25:8 says "the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces" that has no direct relation to when Rev 21:4 says "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes"? If we can't even directly relate those two verses then how can we ever relate two verses or passages together? Even when Paul specifically says that the time when the dead are resurrected and we are all changed will result in the prophecy regarding death being swallowed up in victory you try to say that he is not giving the timing of the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8 in that verse (1 Cor 15:54).

That is exactly what I am saying. The phrase "wipe tears away" tells a result, not the timing of the result. The context tells the timing the result is accomplished. And the timing of Isaiah is the Millennial kingdom, the time of Revelation is after the Millennial and going into eternity.

It's related to the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth, which is made clear in verse 17. But what Peter makes clear in 2 Peter 3:10-13 and what John makes clear in Rev 21:1-4 about the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth is that it's not a gradual process but rather results upon the passing away/burning up of the heavens and the earth as we know it. And the result of the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth is a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13) and where there will be "no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain". But you have wickedness, death, sorrow, crying and pain still being in existence when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in.

No I don't, the Millennium is not the 'new heavens and earth".

Okay, we really need to discuss this in more detail because I believe you are missing something here. The place where the wicked currently go when they die is obviously Hades (Luke 16:19-31). So, this means you are saying that when Jesus has the goats/wicked cast "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) you are saying that the "everlasting fire" is referring to Hades. But that can't be. Hades is not "everlasting". It will be cast into the lake of fire as we can see here:

I have already commented regarding Matt 25 in that Jesus is stating the result of there rejection which is the lake of fire. But if your stance is that Rev and Matt are the same timing, then Rev 19 tells us that while the AC and the FP are thrown into the LOF, the rest were not, though they were killed. So are Matt here and Rev 19 not the same time? Or, are Jesus words in Matt regarding the final result of the goats as opposed to saying that He is removing them from His earthly kingdom to await what will indeed be their final outcome. With Jesus, what ever is stated is a good as final outcome because we know that whatever He says is a good as accomplished even if from our perspective there is a wait.
Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 19:20-21 and Rev 20:14 are separated by the 1000 years as far as I am concerned so the argument from my perspective does not change anything. They are two different events, or timings.

The only "everlasting fire" will be the lake of fire, not Hades. So, Matt 25:41 has to be referring to the lake of fire and not Hades. Also, the place prepared for the devil and his angels is not Hades, but the lake of fire. We can see from Rev 20:10 that the lake of fire is Satan's eventual destiny, not Hades. Please tell me how you can reconcile what I've pointed out here with your view, if you can.

I never said, (or meant to say nor do I believe), the unrighteous or Satan have a final desitnation of Hades, I said, that Jesus words in Matt were regarding their final destination, but they would not be going into that final destination until the GWTJ. I never said that there final destination was Hades as opposed to the LOF. I just said, that along with all the unrighteous who have died prior to the GWTJ described in Rev 20:11, they would go there until the GWTJ and thus on to their final destination of the LOF.

You asked me where do they go when they die, and I said, where all the other unsaved go. That is not anywhere close to me saying there final destination is Hades as opposed to the LOF