Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

[ewq1938]

I did no such thing. There is no error here. This list of tribes is NOT the same 12 tribes of Israel found in the old testament.

Then you worded it badly since you said:

"Speaking of error" and then went on about how Dan is missing from Revelation. There is no error. Dan was removed from the Tribes of Israel. Reminds me how Judas was replaced.

I guess the ones of Dan wouldn't be Jewish anymore based on that.

Does anyone know why Dan was removed?

[Raybob]

Then you worded it badly since you said:

"Speaking of error" and then went on about how Dan is missing from Revelation. There is no error. Dan was removed from the Tribes of Israel. ..

Not up to Chronicles 30. Where do you see them removed???

So they established a decree to make proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beersheba even to Dan, that they should come to keep the passover unto the LORD God of Israel at Jerusalem: for they had not done it of a long time in such sort as it was written.
(2Ch 30:5)

[ewq1938]

Not up to Chronicles 30. Where do you see them removed???

Are you ok?? Is there anything wrong with you or do more than one person use this account?

You are the one that mentioned them missing in Rev.

They are listed in the OT but they sure aren't even mentioned in Revelation.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Dan is no longer considered a tribe of Israel by this time.

[Raybob]

...Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Dan is no longer considered a tribe of Israel by this time.

Dan is/was/and always will be a tribe of Israel. This is how we know that Revelation is symbolic, and cannot possibly be literal.

[ewq1938]

Dan is/was/and always will be a tribe of Israel. This is how we know that Revelation is symbolic, and cannot possibly be literal.

lol......ok then.

[Adstars]

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


The 144,000 are not ethnic Jews only....but are gathered from among all men...This is stated twice! In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free...unless you think the gospel has no place in the kingdom.

They are descendants of Abraham as clearly stated. You don't twist scripture to fit it into your understanding. These are innocents and therefore they have no knowledge of Good and evil and therefore are redeemed to live in the Kingdom Jesus founds on the earth. Of course they are joined by the saints of the Gospel. If you think that God is only going to save 144,000 then that is very sad when the same scripture i quoted says the other group where so many that they could not be numbered. Why can’t people read what the bible actually says and accept it with meekness instead of using their own minds and honouring the thoughts of other men?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstars]

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Is not natural Judea included in ALL NATIONS? With Christ there are no favourites.

Yes.. There you go, the second group that no one could number a different group that the 144,000 that clearly could be numbered because their number is given 12,000 from each tribe of Israel.

Clear as day.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

[David 001]

There are two groups being spoken of in Revelation regarding the 144,000, but there are not two groups of 144,000. This is one group, and it is the Bride.

The two mistakes being made here is in the interpretation of those that were numbered, and those that no one could number, and what the number 144,000 represents.

First, the ones that were numbered in Revelation 7:4 were the Israelites in the Old Testament up until the time Jesus brought us salvation by grace. These were the ones that were resurrected on the day of Pentecost to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That number of people will not increase. Those that would resurrect from the Old Testament did resurrect. No one else from the Old Testament is going to resurrect to receive the Holy Ghost. Thus, that number is known, or it is a completed number.

Those that no one could number in Revelation 7:9 are the Gentiles saved by grace. This number is not known because there are still people being saved today, and people that will be saved in the future. This is why no one can number them.

The number 144,000 not a literal number, but a symbolic number. The number 12 is always a number of judgement in the Bible. That is why there were 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles, etc.

There are two groups of people that will be taken to be in the Bride. One group from the O.T., one group from the N.T. Each group will be part of the Bride that judges the earth with Christ for 1,000 years.

12 X 12 X 1,000 = 144,000.
The first 12 are the O.T. saints that will make the Bride.
The second 12 are the N.T. saints that will make the Bride.
The number 12 represents the fact these Bride members are the final judges of the earth for 1,000 years before satan is loosed for a little season and sin and death are destroyed.
The number 1,000 represents the fact they will rule and reign 1,000 years.

[ewq1938]

144,000 is extremely literal. Anytime people start with this crazy numerology they usually go very far left and away from what is true. A lot of this is simply nonsense.

There are two groups being spoken of in Revelation regarding the 144,000, but there are not two groups of 144,000. This is one group, and it is the Bride.

The two mistakes being made here is in the interpretation of those that were numbered, and those that no one could number, and what the number 144,000 represents.

First, the ones that were numbered in Revelation 7:4 were the Israelites in the Old Testament up until the time Jesus brought us salvation by grace. These were the ones that were resurrected on the day of Pentecost to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That number of people will not increase. Those that would resurrect from the Old Testament did resurrect. No one else from the Old Testament is going to resurrect to receive the Holy Ghost. Thus, that number is known, or it is a completed number.

Those that no one could number in Revelation 7:9 are the Gentiles saved by grace. This number is not known because there are still people being saved today, and people that will be saved in the future. This is why no one can number them.

The number 144,000 not a literal number, but a symbolic number. The number 12 is always a number of judgement in the Bible. That is why there were 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles, etc.

There are two groups of people that will be taken to be in the Bride. One group from the O.T., one group from the N.T. Each group will be part of the Bride that judges the earth with Christ for 1,000 years.

12 X 12 X 1,000 = 144,000.
The first 12 are the O.T. saints that will make the Bride.
The second 12 are the N.T. saints that will make the Bride.
The number 12 represents the fact these Bride members are the final judges of the earth for 1,000 years before satan is loosed for a little season and sin and death are destroyed.
The number 1,000 represents the fact they will rule and reign 1,000 years.

[David 001]

If the number 144,000 is literal, then the Bride is already complete, for there are 144,000 listed from the tribes of Israel. If that's the case, then what are we striving for?

Realizing that numbers have a significant meaning in the Bible is not numerology. If this was the case, then why does 7 represent something that is complete? Why is the mark of the beast 666? Why are there 2 witnesses?

There are to many times a specific number is used in the Bible to simply ignore them, or claim they are literal numbers without a spiritual interpretation.

Even vague references, such as time, times and a half a time in Daniel 12:7 and Revelation 12:14 refer to the literal number 1,260, but has the spiritual interpretation pointing to the dark ages.

[ewq1938]

If the number 144,000 is literal, then the Bride is already complete, for there are 144,000 listed from the tribes of Israel. If that's the case, then what are we striving for?

The two things have nothing in common. The 144,000 is a literal number of people and the Bride of Christ grows everyday.

Realizing that numbers have a significant meaning in the Bible is not numerology. If this was the case, then why does 7 represent something that is complete?

It doesn't.

Why is the mark of the beast 666?

The mark of the beast is not 666.

Why are there 2 witnesses?

Because God choose two.

There are to many many times a specific number is used in the Bible to simply ignore them, or claim they are literal numbers without a spiritual interpretation.

It's a mistake and it will lead you badly.

[David 001]

So you see no spiritual meaning whatsoever to the seven golden candlesticks, seven stars in his right hand, seven churches, seven seals, seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, seven angels, seven thunders, etc?

Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." Is not six hundred threescore and six equal to 666?

If 144,000 are the literal number of people that will make the Bride, then what happens if there are 144,001 people that have overcome sin and are worthy to make the Bride when Christ returns?

[ewq1938]

So you see no spiritual meaning whatsoever to the seven golden candlesticks, seven stars in his right hand, seven churches, seven seals, seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, seven angels, seven thunders, etc?

Not with the number 7.

Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." Is not six hundred threescore and six equal to 666?

You errantly said the mark of the beast was 666 but the verse says 666 is the number of the name of the beast, not related to the mark of the beast given to the deceived.

If 144,000 are the literal number of people that will make the Bride, then what happens if there are 144,001 people that have overcome sin and are worthy to make the Bride when Christ returns?

The bible doesn't state the 144,000 are "the bride". The Bride is all who are Christians, believers, those who are saved.

[David 001]

Interesting. All I can say is we definitely have a different understanding of the scriptures.

[ewq1938]

Interesting. All I can say is we definitely have a different understanding of the scriptures.

Does that mean you still think the mark of the beast is 666?

Are these things you taught yourself or do you have a mentor or teacher?