The "preservation of the saints" VS the of the "eternal security of the believer"

[episkopos]

On the face of it, both these doctrines seem to be the same or similar. They are of course very different. In my view one is biblical and the other is not. I maintain the doctrine of the preservation of the saints is biblical.

I thought that contrasting these might bring us closer to a common understanding of the issue. I hope this edifies all in some way.

[John 8:32]

On the face of it, both these doctrines seem to be the same or similar. They are of course very different. In my view one is biblical and the other is not. I maintain the doctrine of the preservation of the saints is biblical.

I thought that contrasting these might bring us closer to a common understanding of the issue. I hope this edifies all in some way.

I think it might help if you define both. They could mean different things to different people.

[episkopos]

God tests those who He has called. At one point in the salvation/sanctification process we will be tested fully in order to ascertain if we are truly putting the Lord first...I call this the trial of fire. I see this as the baptism of fire that John the Baptist mentioned.

Once we have come through that experience of the cross with it's death we are never the same. We have become VETTED so to speak.

This is done before the principalities and powers to show who is truly His. As in...Jesus I know and Paul I know...

We see this with Abraham as well...

Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

[episkopos]

I think it might help if you define both. They could mean different things to different people.

Preservation of the saints: This doctrine covers the protection of the saint from the enemy...as in..I will never leave you or forsake you...or else...he who believes INTO Me shall never perish

This doctrine states that once one has given all for Christ, and been approved, that he will be preserved until Christ returns. Christ will leave the 99 sheep to get that one that strays...even breaking his legs in order to preserve his life.

It is possible to resist the grace of God for the saint...but after having been through so much already few will do so.

If we have given all for Him then He promised to preserve our lives...lose our lives for Him and we will preserve it.

The doctrine of the eternal security of the believer:
This position is the classic OSAS position. Redemption equals a guaranteed ticket to heaven. This salvation is unconditional once the believer has accepted Jesus as their personal saviour and trust in Him for salvation.

Notice how there is a distinction to be made between a saint and a believer. A saint has met the conditions of discipleship by laying down his life for Christ. A believer has approved Jesus of being his saviour...for the "finished work of the cross" to be applied to him.

[RollTide21]

Preservation of the saints: This doctrine covers the protection of the saint from the enemy...as in..I will never leave you or forsake you...or else...he who believes INTO Me shall never perish

This doctrine states that once one has given all for Christ, and been approved, that he will be preserved until Christ returns. Christ will leave the 99 sheep to get that one that strays...even breaking his legs in order to preserve his life.

It is possible to resist the grace of God for the saint...but after having been through so much already few will do so.

If we have given all for Him then He promised to preserve our lives...lose our lives for Him and we will preserve it.

The doctrine of the eternal security of the believer:
This position is the classic OSAS position. Redemption equals a guaranteed ticket to heaven. This salvation is unconditional once the believer has accepted Jesus as their personal saviour and trust in Him for salvation.

Notice how there is a distinction to be made between a saint and a believer. A saint has met the conditions of discipleship by laying down his life for Christ. A believer has approved Jesus of being his saviour...for the "finished work of the cross" to be applied to him.

I can see the merits of this position. I would certainly differentiate between a "Believer" and one who has SURRENDERED himself to Christ. There are many who believe and ask to receive Salvation, but have not yet been willing to give themselves fully to Christ. We can't tell God, "I want you to save me, but I'd like to hang onto my porn habit." We've got to be willing to give Him our all.

[episkopos]

I can see the merits of this position. I would certainly differentiate between a "Believer" and one who has SURRENDERED himself to Christ. There are many who believe and ask to receive Salvation, but have not yet been willing to give themselves fully to Christ. We can't tell God, "I want you to save me, but I'd like to hang onto my porn habit." We've got to be willing to give Him our all.

Yes, and not just our bad things but our good things as well...willing to forsake wife and kids and even our own lives.

[BroRog]

This position is the classic OSAS position.

I don't think there is a "classic" OSAS position. That's one reason for all the debate. The term "OSAS" is not well defined.

[episkopos]

I don't think there is a "classic" OSAS position. That's one reason for all the debate. The term "OSAS" is not well defined.

Hi BroRog....could you explain the position as you see it? Thanks!

[BroRog]

Hi BroRog....could you explain the position as you see it? Thanks!

Sure, at first I thought OSAS was coined by critics of the "Charles Stanley" view of "Free Grace." According to Charles Stanley and others who agree with him, once a person says "Yes" to the question, that person is saved and nothing can keep that person from being saved, not even the person himself.

He sums up his deep conviction that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone when he claims, "Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation." Wikipedia:Once Saved Always Saved

Many theologians and Bible students would have a problem with such an extreme view. And this is the view that I thought was OSAS. And it explains why evangelists such as Billy Graham, pushed for the "decision". They thought they were saving souls by getting someone to "sign on the dotted line", or make a "decision for Christ." Get someone to say the sinner's prayer and that person is immediately saved and can't lose salvation no matter what happens after that.

The acronym OSAS is short for "Once Saved; Always Saved" and is based on an inaccurate understanding of how God is saving people. What Charles Stanley and others actually mean is "Once Believed; Always Saved", which is why the locus of the rebuttal of OSAS centers on passages that warn a believer that a believer can fall away from the faith. Such passages demonstrate that once a person believes it is not a foregone conclusion that one will be saved.

The Free Grace folks have no real answer to those passages except to argue from another inaccurate understanding of "fellowship with God", which they take to mean "companionship" or "friendship" rather than what the Bible actually means by it: simpatico, i.e. having the same mind, or values, or worldview, or outlook, or something like that. OSAS argues that the warnings alert the believer that while one can not lose salvation, one can lose fellowship with God. In addition, one can't invent a religion and forget an incentive for doing good, and having removed hell as the disincentive for disobedience, OSAS doctrine incentivizes the practice of the Christian religion through the offer of eternal rewards awaiting them in heaven.

I commented that I wasn't sure we currently had a "classic" definition of OSAS because I began to notice that the acronym was being applied to Calvinistic versions of eternal security also. I think we are losing that acronym as a name for a narrowly defined, and specific doctrine as it is slowly being used generally to refer to any version of eternal security.

[ewq1938]

Preservation of the saints: This doctrine covers the protection of the saint from the enemy...as in..I will never leave you or forsake you...or else...he who believes INTO Me shall never perish

Dunno if this even matters much but certainly ultimately the Saints are safe but temporarily they shall be defeated:

Rev_13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

[John 8:32]

I can see the merits of this position. I would certainly differentiate between a "Believer" and one who has SURRENDERED himself to Christ. There are many who believe and ask to receive Salvation, but have not yet been willing to give themselves fully to Christ. We can't tell God, "I want you to save me, but I'd like to hang onto my porn habit." We've got to be willing to give Him our all.

Got to agree, there is much more involved than just 'believe'...

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Although one cannot earn salvation and no amount of good works earns us anything, salvation is conditional. It is not just handed out to any and everyone.

[MoreMercy]

Hi yall.
I don't want to derail the discussion.
I just want to ask for a suggestion after I give a brief for the reason for asking for the suggestion:

I have a brother-inlaw who is on one side of this fence.
I am close to his and my sister's life so I see the results in their lives that spring from that position, mainly their view is that as long a their sins are little sins they can live with them as long as they ask for forgiveness.
(I agree with the forgiveness part... the living with it is what I cannot digest)
This man is a busy man, works, works, works and provides to anyone and everyone who ask of him. He is one of if not the busiest member of his church when it comes to manual labor and time, energy and resources devoted to the churches maintenance and also serves in several of the church's good offices too.
He reads his bible, goes to regular studies, loves and honors his wife and children, so on and so on...

Anyway, I am telling you this to explain that he just doesn't have time to consider and weigh this topic even though he is a reasonable man he is just very busy. I do get an opportunity to talk about it with him once every two month or so on four to six hour trips he needs help with that pertain to his business.
But I am not equipped, versed and graced with the patience and vocabulary to be effectively communicating the points I want to make with out offending him.
So..... does anyone know of any books that gracefully address the subject from both points of view, that I could give to him ?



Thanks you, Father bless and have mercy on us.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

You first/also need to distinguish between "Perseverance" of the Saints and "Preservation" of the Saints by definition.

[episkopos]

You first/also need to distinguish between "Perseverance" of the Saints and "Preservation" of the Saints by definition.

Good point! I believe they go hand in hand. God will not preserve that which does not persevere!

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Good point! I believe they go hand in hand. God will not preserve that which does not persevere!

Well... that's not really what I meant. They have similar roles in opposing doctrines. Tossing them in the semantics Quisinart sure doesn't help.