Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

[rom826]

I thess 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

I highlighted the word all because I think it might present a problem for both pre-trib and post-trib.


Problem for post-trib: if the Lord Jesus Christ is coming with all his saints, doesn't that mean they had to be raptured sometime prior to him coming with them?


Problem for pre-trib: Most pre-tribbers say that the "tribulation" saints are never raptured since the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation. How can they then be coming with the Lord Jesus Christ at His return. I thess 3:13 says he come with all his saints.


Hopefully some in both camps can answers these questions.

[Diggindeeper]

I thess 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

I highlighted the word all because I think it might present a problem for both pre-trib and post-trib.


Problem for post-trib: if the Lord Jesus Christ is coming with all his saints, doesn't that mean they had to be raptured sometime prior to him coming with them?


Problem for pre-trib: Most pre-tribbers say that the "tribulation" saints are never raptured since the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation. How can they then be coming with the Lord Jesus Christ at His return. I thess 3:13 says he come with all his saints.


Hopefully some in both camps can answers these questions.

Rom, you don't believe to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

Those people had not been 'raptured' out of here ahead of anything. They simply died. All these years, the saints have died and gone on to be with the Lord. Those who were faithful to their death are today... a great cloud of witnesses!

[John146]

I thess 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

I highlighted the word all because I think it might present a problem for both pre-trib and post-trib.


Problem for post-trib: if the Lord Jesus Christ is coming with all his saints, doesn't that mean they had to be raptured sometime prior to him coming with them?


Problem for pre-trib: Most pre-tribbers say that the "tribulation" saints are never raptured since the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation. How can they then be coming with the Lord Jesus Christ at His return. I thess 3:13 says he come with all his saints.


Hopefully some in both camps can answers these questions.

Based on what Paul said in 1 Thess 4:14-17, we can see that He both comes with saints (the dead in Christ) and for saints (those who are alive and remain). So, with that in mind, I believe the only way to interpret 1 Thess 3:13 in such a way as to not contradict 1 Thess 4:14-17 is to conclude that 1 Thess 3:13 is speaking of all the dead in Christ in particular.

[rom826]

Rom, you don't believe to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

Those people had not been 'raptured' out of here ahead of anything. They simply died. All these years, the saints have died and gone on to be with the Lord. Those who were faithful to their death are today... a great cloud of witnesses!

The verse I am asking about does not speak of only those saints who have died prior to the rapture. It says all his saints. If it says all his saints, that would have to include both those who are living and those who are dead at the time of the rapture. Had the verse said he is coming with some of His saints (those who have died), I would be able to accept your explanation that he is only coming with those who have died. Yet it says all .

[rom826]

Based on what Paul said in 1 Thess 4:14-17, we can see that He both comes with saints (the dead in Christ) and for saints (those who are alive and remain). So, with that in mind, I believe the only way to interpret 1 Thess 3:13 in such a way as to not contradict 1 Thess 4:14-17 is to conclude that 1 Thess 3:13 is speaking of all the dead in Christ in particular.

As I said to my response to diggindeeper, the verse does not say "some" of His saints. It says he is coming with all of his saints.

[Diggindeeper]

Based on what Paul said in 1 Thess 4:14-17, we can see that He both comes with saints (the dead in Christ) and for saints (those who are alive and remain). So, with that in mind, I believe the only way to interpret 1 Thess 3:13 in such a way as to not contradict 1 Thess 4:14-17 is to conclude that 1 Thess 3:13 is speaking of all the dead in Christ in particular.

The rest, those who 'remain', are explained in the above quote.

He comes with them and for them.

[Diggindeeper]

That's the only way they ALL end up WITH Him. (None left behind. No saints left, not even FUTURE saints. Because they ALL end up WITH Him.)

[divaD]

The verse I am asking about does not speak of only those saints who have died prior to the rapture. It says all his saints. If it says all his saints, that would have to include both those who are living and those who are dead at the time of the rapture. Had the verse said he is coming with some of His saints (those who have died), I would be able to accept your explanation that he is only coming with those who have died. Yet it says all .

I hear what you're saying with the 'all' and everything. Something else to take notice of tho.

1 Thessalonians 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

I would think the ones Paul is speaking to here, would have to be different than the ones at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Notice what is said in verse 13...To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father. Then he goes on to say...at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Why would Paul be speaking to them that way? If they were expected to be with all the saints at His coming, then why is he sounding like he's meaning they will be meeting them or something? Maybe it's just me, but in verse 13 it's almost like there's at least 2 groups in mind, and that the first group is waiting to meet the 2nd group, in this case, the Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. Maybe the saints here should be understood as heavenly angels or something, since heavenly angels clearly accompanied Him unto heaven, and the fact that He's to be returning in like manner?

[John146]

As I said to my response to diggindeeper, the verse does not say "some" of His saints. It says he is coming with all of his saints.

Yes, I know what it says, but don't we need to make sure our interpretation of that verse does not contradict other passages like 1 Thess 4:14-17? Does it make sense to you that He would come at a time when none of His saints were alive on the earth?