Romans 7 without Chapters 6 and 8 is unintelligible. But what does it all mean?

[Eyelog]

I. Topical Structure

A. Rom 6:1-7:6 and 8:1-39 (All of ch. 6, the first 6 verses of ch. 7 and all of ch. 8):
-- Life in Christ as our Savior and Lord
B. Rom 7:7 -7:25 (the 18 most famous verses of ch. 7):
-- Life without Christ as Savior and Lord


II. Chronological Explanation of Practical Sanctification from Romans 6-8:

A. 6:1-7:6 If We Died to Sin, Why Should We Continue to Live in Sin? We don’t have to. We have the option, now, of not allowing sin to control us through our mortal body. We don’t have to keep on using our body as a means to sin and act out unrighteousness. Instead, we are now able to offer our body to God as instruments of righteousness. If we do so exclusively, as slaves to righteousness, only obeying it, then that results in sanctification, and sanctification results in eternal life. If we are doing that, then we are serving in the Newness of the Spirit. So, if we are able, what should be holding us up at all on that? Only the lack of an inner desire to serve the law of God.

B. Rom 7:7 -7:25 On the other hand, before I had Christ, I was a believing Jew. At that time, I loved the Law and wanted to obey it, but I was not able to do so. Why? Because I was of flesh, sold into bondage into sin. I did not understand it at the time, but it takes more than being willing to obey the Law, wanting to, agreeing with it, and joyfully concurring that it is good in my inner man, my mind. I could not serve the Law of God merely because I wanted to. Why? Because the Law of the body, the flesh, was serving the Law of Sin, and I was unable to overcome the body of death, which made me its prisoner. Even though I wanted to obey, I could not outwardly. What I needed was to be baptized into Christ, so that the Old Self would be crucified and I would receive the Holy Spirit to lead me. Then, I would be able to employ my willingness, my desire, my agreement and concurring mind in order to do good. Until then, despite my inner man wanting to do good, I was lost; I was going to hell.

C. Rom 8:1-39Now that I have accepted Christ, there is no condemnation for me. In fact, because we walk according to the Spirit, which means we follow what the Spirit leads us to do, in Scripture or in real time, we know we have our mind set on the things of the Spirit, resulting in life and peace. If we have the Spirit, Jesus will give life to our mortal bodies to overcome the flesh. So, we are under an obligation to God, to put to death the deeds of the body through the Spirit. Because we are able to do so, we need only desire to do so. But if we don’t go through with it, for example if we are afraid to suffer in order to be sanctified, then we will not see eternal life. But we must be led by the Spirit in it.

How about a nice chart?!

Strugglers:	Mortal Body	Inner Man (Heart/Mind)
Gentile Unbeliever or non-devout Jew (Not directly depicted in Rom 6-8)	Body Enslaved to Sin/can’t obey	Mind enslaved to Sin/Not want to obey
Devout Jew (Rom 7:7 -7:25)	Body Enslaved to Sin/can’t obey	Mind Loves God’s Law/wants to obey
Devout Messianic Jew (Rom 8)	Body habitually sins BUT can obey if understands position in Christ and seeks control by the Spirit	Mind Loves God’s Law/wants to obey, but Mind needs some renewal anyway, so will seek obedience by the Spirit.
Messianic Gentile (Rom 6 and 8)	Body habitually sins BUT can obey if renewed Mind in control by the Spirit	Mind habitually controlled to Sin, but Mind can be renewed to start taking control of Body by the Spirit

Dig me? I have all the citations ready to roll to discuss all this.


But what should be gleaned here if we get past how best to interpret the Scripture?

1. We can forget the idea we are like the devout messianic Jew, unless that's what we really are, like Paul was.

2. We are messed up Messianic Gentiles with two problems: (1) We are afraid to suffer to obey and (2) Our Mind and Heart need renewal of a radical kind, because we are challenged by false teachings about practical sanctification all the live long day!

Let me just say this:

Romans 6-8 makes it perfectly clear that most of us struggle with inability to offer the parts of our body to righteousness because we are wooses. Second, we are wooses because we can't figure out why we oughta suffer for anything for God. Why? Because we don't love God's law, and we don't love God.

Is it so very, very wrong to ask ourselves why we don't love those things?

Here's a gift to the Body it usually doesn't want to receive:

Eyelog: We have trusted Christ for eternal life, but not for the remainder of our life on earth. We are born again with the Old Self de-fanged and the New Self sitting there as pretty as the Tree of Life in the Garden, but we wallow in the former and ignore the latter.

We are supposed to move from the Old Self to the New Self, putting off and putting on, at all three levels: Heart, Mind and Body

We loiter. We linger. We eat the crappy candy out of the vending machines at the bus stop we've been delivered to, instead of walking next door to dine with the Master of the Universe.

Why?

People who are wrong think they know how to read Romans 6-8. That's all. But it's time to renew the mind PROPERLY.

[Eyelog]

The irony is that many struggle with Rom 7:7 -7:25, trying to figure out if that describes the double-mindedness and frustration of the serious believer, who has yet to overcome in many areas of sin and failure to put on the New Self.

It's ironic, because that section specifically exemplifies the non-Christian devout Jew who loves the Law but can't keep it bc of the Old Self still being alive and too powerful.

It's ironic because the description of the messed up believer not being able to obey completely is in Rom 6:1-7:6 and 8:1-39, which is straddled by the section that drives everyone nuts.

in other words, our in-between position is everywhere except where folks have struggled, wondering if that's what that means.

[PJW]

There are people who have "crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24) People who have been crucified with Christ, and buried with Him, and raised to walk as new creatures. (Rom 6:3-6). People who don't sin.
The wages of sin is death...(Rom 6:23), but Paul says, "Some mens sins are opened beforehand, going before to judgement; and some men they follow after." (I Tim 5:24) Those who have suffered with Christ have already faced their death. Peter writes, "Foreasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (I Peter 4:1) Thanks be to God for freeing me from committing sin!
How 'bout you?

[Eyelog]

PJW wrote: There are people who have "crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts." ... People who don't sin. ... How 'bout you?

Peej, you walking in total sanctification? Tell me more. I gave my testimony, in part, in the 5 part article currently on the homepage. Maybe that will answer your question about me. But, I would love to hear more about you.

As a sidebar, ever read, "No More Mr. Christian Nice Guy"? ... me either.

[Noeb]

Peej, you walking in total sanctification?

Did Paul say He was?

[Eyelog]

Did Paul say He was?

Brother, you sound elusive. Can we talk about you?

If not, that's okay.

So far as Paul, he was light years ahead of nearly everyone, because he proactively sought to become like Jesus in His character. But, the more you reach your desitination, the more you keep slip sliding away ... slip sliding away ... into the arms of the Master!

What would you say?

[Noeb]

Brother, you sound elusive. Can we talk about you?

If not, that's okay.

So far as Paul, he was light years ahead of nearly everyone, because he proactively sought to become like Jesus in His character. But, the more you reach your desitination, the more you keep slip sliding away ... slip sliding away ... into the arms of the Master!

What would you say?

No, not elusive. Since the writer of the mystery never revealed anything other than the need to press on for it I see no need to assume he obtained it . Therefore, I see no reason for you to ask another in comparison, and no need to compare myself either.

In my experience yes, the closer you get the further you fall, realizing he is our only hope.

[Eyelog]

No, not elusive. Since the writer of the mystery never revealed anything other than the need to press on for it I see no need to assume he obtained it . Therefore, I see no reason for you to ask another in comparison, and no need to compare myself either.

In my experience yes, the closer you get the further you fall, realizing he is our only hope.

If you are going to misapprehend the likes of me, that's one thing. But to misapprehend Paul is not far from misapprehending his Master. In that case, you are light years behind. Hopefully, at some time soon, you will see the light, and be reminded, it's not the age, ... it's the miles in yer light years you gotta watch.

[Michae]

Paul start chapter 7 by discribing the sin nature and soul union as a marriage that couldnt be dissolved accept by death. Jesus crusified the sin nature on the cross, now we are free to marry another, Christ. Then Paul goes on to speak from the in Adam standpoint of him having the knowledge now that he had a sin nature. Before Paul no one knew they had a sin nature, they knew there was sin and they committed such but didnt know the source that drives sin. So part of Romans 7 is Paul speaking from his once Adamic state, the verse 9 is the proof where he says he was alive once with out the law, Paul was never alive with out the law, until his salvation, only Adam was, Paul was born into the law as being jewish

[Eyelog]

Paul start chapter 7 by discribing the sin nature and soul union as a marriage that couldnt be dissolved accept by death. Jesus crusified the sin nature on the cross, now we are free to marry another, Christ. Then Paul goes on to speak from the in Adam standpoint of him having the knowledge now that he had a sin nature. Before Paul no one knew they had a sin nature, they knew there was sin and they committed such but didnt know the source that drives sin. So part of Romans 7 is Paul speaking from his once Adamic state, the verse 9 is the proof where he says he was alive once with out the law, Paul was never alive with out the law, until his salvation, only Adam was, Paul was born into the law as being jewish

I agree with you in part. I like the way you pick up on the marriage theme. But in Ch. 6 Paul is addressing all messianic humans, converted Gentiles as well as converted Jews. Same is true in ch. 8. At 7:7 to 25 or so Paul refers to himself as an unconverted but devout Jew, the kind He was hoping to help convert in romans. He was showing them that in spite of their love of the Law, they were still bound by the power or law of in which inhere's in their mortal flesh, which you are calling the sin nature, I think. He then shows that the only way to get past the flesh is to accept the Baptism into Jesus described in Chapter 6, through which we are in Christ and in the Spirit, the Old man/self/anthropos/sin nature reckoned dead, as we freely (for the first time now that we have Christ) offer our members to righteousness instead of to unrighteousness and in this way kill off the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit. that's Romans 6-8. Any point you made consistent with that account I agree with. Thanks for your feedback, Michae.

[Michae]

I agree with you in part. I like the way you pick up on the marriage theme. But in Ch. 6 Paul is addressing all messianic humans, converted Gentiles as well as converted Jews. Same is true in ch. 8. At 7:7 to 25 or so Paul refers to himself as an unconverted but devout Jew, the kind He was hoping to help convert in romans. He was showing them that in spite of their love of the Law, they were still bound by the power or law of in which inhere's in their mortal flesh, which you are calling the sin nature, I think. He then shows that the only way to get past the flesh is to accept the Baptism into Jesus described in Chapter 6, through which we are in Christ and in the Spirit, the Old man/self/anthropos/sin nature reckoned dead, as we freely (for the first time now that we have Christ) offer our members to righteousness instead of to unrighteousness and in this way kill off the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit. that's Romans 6-8. Any point you made consistent with that account I agree with. Thanks for your feedback, Michae.

Yes i as well agree with you in part. The diffetence in what i am saying is there is no longer a sin nature to the born again, that is spirit. What we deal with now in sin is an unrenewed mind, that is soul. We nolonger are dealing with a sin nature we are dealing with a mind the mirrors the oldman sin nature but we gave a newman now and the mind has to be renewed to him, Christ in you. You see that is body, soul and spirit all an out working from the inner man. We are new creations in spirit not in soul-mind. That is where the gargantous problem we have in christianity folks have not had that revealed they spend alot of time at the whipping post of religion trying to get better, when what we need is the gospel of Christ as our life preacjed and taught so the mind gets renewed, that works out into to the life style we all desire, bless you.

[Eyelog]

Yes i as well agree with you in part. The diffetence in what i am saying is there is no longer a sin nature to the born again, that is spirit. What we deal with now in sin is an unrenewed mind, that is soul. We nolonger are dealing with a sin nature we are dealing with a mind the mirrors the oldman sin nature but we gave a newman now and the mind has to be renewed to him, Christ in you. You see that is body, soul and spirit all an out working from the inner man. We are new creations in spirit not in soul-mind. That is where the gargantous problem we have in christianity folks have not had that revealed they spend alot of time at the whipping post of religion trying to get better, when what we need is the gospel of Christ as our life preacjed and taught so the mind gets renewed, that works out into to the life style we all desire, bless you.

I like your analysis of the situation, because it is highly principled based on some solid Scriptural support -- very solid:

(1) Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. Rom 6

(2) 1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. ... 9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him. Col 3:9-10.

Yet, we get an ambiguity in Paul on this subject. On the one hand it is a past event, and on another, it is not a present condition. Here's my analysis from my blog on this. After you consider that, please comment. I will then respond with more scripture so we can lovingly discuss this and edify each other more and more, friend.

Paul demonstrates that our foreordained, predestined transformation into the likeness of Christ is not just in our eternity future. Rather, that transformation is manifold. It has many ‘folds’ or distinct aspects to it. He shows that, in fact, our destiny to be conformed to the image of the Son actually consists of three separate processes which occur in three distinct time frames. He writes:

11For the grace of God has appeared, (i) bringing salvation to all men, (ii) 12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, (iii) 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. Titus 2:11-14.
These three processes of becoming like Jesus, and by extension like the Father, refer to when, where and in what ways we will be conformed to His image:

i. We were saved, regenerated and cleansed when we were born again, so that the righteousness of Christ is credited as our righteousness through our faith (redeeming us “from every lawless deed” and purifying us), giving us our positional or imputed righteousness, which explains why we are called the “saints,” which means ‘holy ones’;

ii. We are now supposed to be progressively sanctified (‘set apart’) or transformed during our remaining lifetime on Earth, as we seek to live righteously in the present age; and

iii. We will be completed or ‘perfected’ at the Second Coming, when our mortal Bodies will be consumed by a glorified, immortal Body as we meet Jesus in the air, which is our “blessed hope” of being ultimately glorified, that is, ultimately perfected in righteousness.
Based on these three processes, we can conclude that the way or manner in which we are to become like Jesus and the Father is in our “nature” or character, as well as in our obedient actions in conformity with the Father’s will, pleasing Him. Just as Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of God, in His perfectly righteous and holy obedience to the Father’s will, both in His character and His actions, we are, in turn, to be conformed to the image of Jesus, in those very same things.

This is absolutely amazing, and it is absolutely imperative that we begin the process of believing we can be conformed into the image of Christ in His character and actions in this lifetime. We must believe it with all our Heart, Mind and Body.

This Titus passage answers the question of When we will be transformed into the likeness of Christ:

(i) positionally, when we are born again,

(ii) progressively, during this present age on Earth (after we are born again), and

(iii) ultimately, at the Second Coming.

The passage also explains Where we will (iii) receive our ultimate conformity, a glorified Body like that of Jesus: Either on the planet or in the air, where we will meet Him in the ‘rapture.’

Once we are born again, here on Earth, then, we are in (ii) that middle position of being progressively sanctified or transformed into the likeness of Christ during our remaining lifetime, in this present age. We know the present age will end upon His return. Matthew 13:40; 28:20.

Thanks for the comments on that blog you made there.

Gotta go to church now (Thank you Jesus for DST!).

In Christ,

[Michae]

Eyelog i feel the same way, there are many understanding we each go thru as believers. Hearing out one another is really the Lords wisdom for edifying the body. Nothing i like better than discussing the word, we all love the Lord and have been birthed by the same Father. I have learned thru the years to not try to convince anyone but give my understanding and talk things out if poss.

Let me do this ill quickly lay out what i see as simple salvation. The cross is where the oldman died, sin nature. When we believe on the Lord Jesus a miracle takes place we are birthed by God the Father by placing us in Christ or Christ in us, same thing. That is so simple, now voming to understand what God has done in Christ on the cross is a life time journey in the school.

You see this world was created for a training ground for those that have Christ in them. Before the cross lets say OT stuff, basically what God does is show us that what he is after can not be produced by a human being. What he is after is a person that can love Him like He loves, recipricating love and love that goes back and forth.

The scrip in eph 1 says we wete chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. That to me is the most powerful verse we have as to what was in the Fathers mind before anything was created. To get what he wanted he was going to birth it or birth His own children by chosing to take His creation, u and i, and birth Christ in them and the uniqueness of their very own expression, Christ could express Himself by their creation or the soul. Christ in spirit being expressed by the way we were created. I have to take a break but we can talk more i do have more i would like to get into. Didnt say much about the natures but we will because understanding natures and the birthing is the key that unlocks the scriptures to any hungry geart.

[Michae]

3 Prominent Characters Of Romans 7:

1- Woman (soul-mind)

2- First Husband (old nature/spirit)

3- Another Man (new Son nature)

Romans 7 is an explanation of Romans 5 and 6.

"Know ye not, brethern, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (Romans 7:1).

It becomes immediately apparent the Paul is writing to born again believers who have no understanding of the grace that is their's in Christ.

[Eyelog]

3 Prominent Characters Of Romans 7:

1- Woman (soul-mind)

2- First Husband (old nature/spirit)

3- Another Man (new Son nature)

Romans 7 is an explanation of Romans 5 and 6.

"Know ye not, brethern, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (Romans 7:1).

It becomes immediately apparent the Paul is writing to born again believers who have no understanding of the grace that is their's in Christ.

Hi, I'm not sure what you mean in precision, when you say that Rom 7 is an explanation of Rom 5. I agree that 6-8 must be read together if one wants to understand practical, progressive sanctification, but most of Rom 5 is limited to our positional sanctification and justification, and thus our imputed righteousness.

Perhaps you are saying that 6-8 are qualifying, or limiting or conditioning, the positional sanctification by showing how it actually works out in practical sanctification. If that is so, then I would agree with you.

So far as the three "characters", I agree that a little Jewish imagery is being employed there, but that only reinforces my interpretation of that portion of Rom 7, as representing a devout Jew who actually loves the law but cannot obey due to the power of sin in the sin nature. He needs the positional sanctification before he can hope to get practical sanctification, but the Gentile and the non-devout Jew, even if they have gained positional sanctification through faith in Christ, are struggling with both practical problems: (1) they don't already love the law of God in their heart and (2) the sin nature is alive and well in their bodies, minds and hearts.

Thus, all believers suffer from what Romans 6 describes, and only very devout Jews (and maybe a few Gentiles who were trying to be Jews or who loved the law of God anyway) are described by Rom 7's latter portion. But all groups of true believers are described in Rom 8 as solving the two problems in these ways:

(1) You don't love the law? No problem; set your mind on the things of the Spirit and trust in the promises of God on the subject of practical sanctification; and
(2) The sin nature has your body doing evil despite what your mind wants? No problem;kill off the deeds of the sin nature by the Spirit of God. That is, walk in the Spirit.

On the other hand, if by Rom 5 being explained by 7 & 6 you mean the first part of Romans 5, then I need to back peddle a bit. Here's the text, one which I myself agree is highly significant to practical sanctification:

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

But I disagree that Romans 6-7 elucidates Rom 1-5. Actually, I think Rom 6-8 describes methods 1-3 of how to abide in Christ only, but the gains of those are generally moment to moment, with only some slow development over a lengthy period of time.

On the other hand, Rom 5:1-5 does NOT speak of employing any of those three methods to abide in Christ and obey. That passage is not elucidated by Rom 6-8, at all. Instead, those first 5 verses of Romans 5 speak of progressive permanent spiritual growth, not merely moment to moment overcoming of the sin nature.

Or, do you have a better interpretation.