Romans 7 without Chapters 6 and 8 is unintelligible. But what does it all mean?

[Eyelog]

I. Topical Structure

A. Rom 6:1-7:6 and 8:1-39 (All of ch. 6, the first 6 verses of ch. 7 and all of ch. 8):
-- Life in Christ as our Savior and Lord
B. Rom 7:7 -7:25 (the 18 most famous verses of ch. 7):
-- Life without Christ as Savior and Lord


II. Chronological Explanation of Practical Sanctification from Romans 6-8:

A. 6:1-7:6 If We Died to Sin, Why Should We Continue to Live in Sin? We don’t have to. We have the option, now, of not allowing sin to control us through our mortal body. We don’t have to keep on using our body as a means to sin and act out unrighteousness. Instead, we are now able to offer our body to God as instruments of righteousness. If we do so exclusively, as slaves to righteousness, only obeying it, then that results in sanctification, and sanctification results in eternal life. If we are doing that, then we are serving in the Newness of the Spirit. So, if we are able, what should be holding us up at all on that? Only the lack of an inner desire to serve the law of God.

B. Rom 7:7 -7:25 On the other hand, before I had Christ, I was a believing Jew. At that time, I loved the Law and wanted to obey it, but I was not able to do so. Why? Because I was of flesh, sold into bondage into sin. I did not understand it at the time, but it takes more than being willing to obey the Law, wanting to, agreeing with it, and joyfully concurring that it is good in my inner man, my mind. I could not serve the Law of God merely because I wanted to. Why? Because the Law of the body, the flesh, was serving the Law of Sin, and I was unable to overcome the body of death, which made me its prisoner. Even though I wanted to obey, I could not outwardly. What I needed was to be baptized into Christ, so that the Old Self would be crucified and I would receive the Holy Spirit to lead me. Then, I would be able to employ my willingness, my desire, my agreement and concurring mind in order to do good. Until then, despite my inner man wanting to do good, I was lost; I was going to hell.

C. Rom 8:1-39Now that I have accepted Christ, there is no condemnation for me. In fact, because we walk according to the Spirit, which means we follow what the Spirit leads us to do, in Scripture or in real time, we know we have our mind set on the things of the Spirit, resulting in life and peace. If we have the Spirit, Jesus will give life to our mortal bodies to overcome the flesh. So, we are under an obligation to God, to put to death the deeds of the body through the Spirit. Because we are able to do so, we need only desire to do so. But if we don’t go through with it, for example if we are afraid to suffer in order to be sanctified, then we will not see eternal life. But we must be led by the Spirit in it.

How about a nice chart?!

Strugglers:	Mortal Body	Inner Man (Heart/Mind)
Gentile Unbeliever or non-devout Jew (Not directly depicted in Rom 6-8)	Body Enslaved to Sin/can’t obey	Mind enslaved to Sin/Not want to obey
Devout Jew (Rom 7:7 -7:25)	Body Enslaved to Sin/can’t obey	Mind Loves God’s Law/wants to obey
Devout Messianic Jew (Rom 8)	Body habitually sins BUT can obey if understands position in Christ and seeks control by the Spirit	Mind Loves God’s Law/wants to obey, but Mind needs some renewal anyway, so will seek obedience by the Spirit.
Messianic Gentile (Rom 6 and 8)	Body habitually sins BUT can obey if renewed Mind in control by the Spirit	Mind habitually controlled to Sin, but Mind can be renewed to start taking control of Body by the Spirit

Dig me? I have all the citations ready to roll to discuss all this.


But what should be gleaned here if we get past how best to interpret the Scripture?

1. We can forget the idea we are like the devout messianic Jew, unless that's what we really are, like Paul was.

2. We are messed up Messianic Gentiles with two problems: (1) We are afraid to suffer to obey and (2) Our Mind and Heart need renewal of a radical kind, because we are challenged by false teachings about practical sanctification all the live long day!

Let me just say this:

Romans 6-8 makes it perfectly clear that most of us struggle with inability to offer the parts of our body to righteousness because we are wooses. Second, we are wooses because we can't figure out why we oughta suffer for anything for God. Why? Because we don't love God's law, and we don't love God.

Is it so very, very wrong to ask ourselves why we don't love those things?

Here's a gift to the Body it usually doesn't want to receive:

Eyelog: We have trusted Christ for eternal life, but not for the remainder of our life on earth. We are born again with the Old Self de-fanged and the New Self sitting there as pretty as the Tree of Life in the Garden, but we wallow in the former and ignore the latter.

We are supposed to move from the Old Self to the New Self, putting off and putting on, at all three levels: Heart, Mind and Body

We loiter. We linger. We eat the crappy candy out of the vending machines at the bus stop we've been delivered to, instead of walking next door to dine with the Master of the Universe.

Why?

People who are wrong think they know how to read Romans 6-8. That's all. But it's time to renew the mind PROPERLY.

[Eyelog]

The irony is that many struggle with Rom 7:7 -7:25, trying to figure out if that describes the double-mindedness and frustration of the serious believer, who has yet to overcome in many areas of sin and failure to put on the New Self.

It's ironic, because that section specifically exemplifies the non-Christian devout Jew who loves the Law but can't keep it bc of the Old Self still being alive and too powerful.

It's ironic because the description of the messed up believer not being able to obey completely is in Rom 6:1-7:6 and 8:1-39, which is straddled by the section that drives everyone nuts.

in other words, our in-between position is everywhere except where folks have struggled, wondering if that's what that means.

[PJW]

There are people who have "crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24) People who have been crucified with Christ, and buried with Him, and raised to walk as new creatures. (Rom 6:3-6). People who don't sin.
The wages of sin is death...(Rom 6:23), but Paul says, "Some mens sins are opened beforehand, going before to judgement; and some men they follow after." (I Tim 5:24) Those who have suffered with Christ have already faced their death. Peter writes, "Foreasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (I Peter 4:1) Thanks be to God for freeing me from committing sin!
How 'bout you?

[Eyelog]

PJW wrote: There are people who have "crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts." ... People who don't sin. ... How 'bout you?

Peej, you walking in total sanctification? Tell me more. I gave my testimony, in part, in the 5 part article currently on the homepage. Maybe that will answer your question about me. But, I would love to hear more about you.

As a sidebar, ever read, "No More Mr. Christian Nice Guy"? ... me either.

[Indueseason]

I. Topical Structure

A. Rom 6:1-7:6 and 8:1-39 (All of ch. 6, the first 6 verses of ch. 7 and all of ch. 8):
-- Life in Christ as our Savior and Lord
B. Rom 7:7 -7:25 (the 18 most famous verses of ch. 7):
-- Life without Christ as Savior and Lord


II. Chronological Explanation of Practical Sanctification from Romans 6-8:

A. 6:1-7:6 If We Died to Sin, Why Should We Continue to Live in Sin? We don’t have to. We have the option, now, of not allowing sin to control us through our mortal body. We don’t have to keep on using our body as a means to sin and act out unrighteousness. Instead, we are now able to offer our body to God as instruments of righteousness. If we do so exclusively, as slaves to righteousness, only obeying it, then that results in sanctification, and sanctification results in eternal life. If we are doing that, then we are serving in the Newness of the Spirit. So, if we are able, what should be holding us up at all on that? Only the lack of an inner desire to serve the law of God.

B. Rom 7:7 -7:25 On the other hand, before I had Christ, I was a believing Jew. At that time, I loved the Law and wanted to obey it, but I was not able to do so. Why? Because I was of flesh, sold into bondage into sin. I did not understand it at the time, but it takes more than being willing to obey the Law, wanting to, agreeing with it, and joyfully concurring that it is good in my inner man, my mind. I could not serve the Law of God merely because I wanted to. Why? Because the Law of the body, the flesh, was serving the Law of Sin, and I was unable to overcome the body of death, which made me its prisoner. Even though I wanted to obey, I could not outwardly. What I needed was to be baptized into Christ, so that the Old Self would be crucified and I would receive the Holy Spirit to lead me. Then, I would be able to employ my willingness, my desire, my agreement and concurring mind in order to do good. Until then, despite my inner man wanting to do good, I was lost; I was going to hell.

C. Rom 8:1-39Now that I have accepted Christ, there is no condemnation for me. In fact, because we walk according to the Spirit, which means we follow what the Spirit leads us to do, in Scripture or in real time, we know we have our mind set on the things of the Spirit, resulting in life and peace. If we have the Spirit, Jesus will give life to our mortal bodies to overcome the flesh. So, we are under an obligation to God, to put to death the deeds of the body through the Spirit. Because we are able to do so, we need only desire to do so. But if we don’t go through with it, for example if we are afraid to suffer in order to be sanctified, then we will not see eternal life. But we must be led by the Spirit in it.

How about a nice chart?!

Strugglers:	Mortal Body	Inner Man (Heart/Mind)
Gentile Unbeliever or non-devout Jew (Not directly depicted in Rom 6-8)	Body Enslaved to Sin/can’t obey	Mind enslaved to Sin/Not want to obey
Devout Jew (Rom 7:7 -7:25)	Body Enslaved to Sin/can’t obey	Mind Loves God’s Law/wants to obey
Devout Messianic Jew (Rom 8)	Body habitually sins BUT can obey if understands position in Christ and seeks control by the Spirit	Mind Loves God’s Law/wants to obey, but Mind needs some renewal anyway, so will seek obedience by the Spirit.
Messianic Gentile (Rom 6 and 8)	Body habitually sins BUT can obey if renewed Mind in control by the Spirit	Mind habitually controlled to Sin, but Mind can be renewed to start taking control of Body by the Spirit

Dig me? I have all the citations ready to roll to discuss all this.


But what should be gleaned here if we get past how best to interpret the Scripture?

1. We can forget the idea we are like the devout messianic Jew, unless that's what we really are, like Paul was.

2. We are messed up Messianic Gentiles with two problems: (1) We are afraid to suffer to obey and (2) Our Mind and Heart need renewal of a radical kind, because we are challenged by false teachings about practical sanctification all the live long day!

Let me just say this:

Romans 6-8 makes it perfectly clear that most of us struggle with inability to offer the parts of our body to righteousness because we are wooses. Second, we are wooses because we can't figure out why we oughta suffer for anything for God. Why? Because we don't love God's law, and we don't love God.

Is it so very, very wrong to ask ourselves why we don't love those things?

Here's a gift to the Body it usually doesn't want to receive:



Why?

People who are wrong think they knew how to read Romans 6-8. That's all. But it's time to renew the mind PROPERLY.

Hey brother, hows things? Of course I'm with you all the way on this, but the bold part was by far the best part for me Wooses?

blessings to you

[Eyelog]

Thanks be to God for freeing me from committing sin!
How 'bout you?

Answer: Somewhere I stopped trusting God for the RESULTS. Instead, I expected the RESULTS as a matter of natural justice, as something not dependent on God's direct working, but dependent only on the 'natural' working of what He had already set up. This was taking the object of His promise for granted. So, instead of hoping in God, I was hoping in God's provision -- does that distinction make sense?

As you know, I posted my 'knock your socks off' analysis of Romans 6-8 yesterday in this thread, more in the form of a 'knock your block off' analysis.

I confess I sometimes come out swinging. I want you to know that I have received a lot of insight from the Lord, and it is not the source of my arrogance.

Rather, God keeps embarrassing me publicly about my ongoing bitterness, bc He wants me to deal with its real source. It's source is not my insight, which is all from Him -- His illumination of the Word He keeps giving me.

No, my bitterness is because I once trusted with childlike faith. I chose to love in the form of trusting and believing all things, overlooking offenses and defects in others. i once was an innocent dove of a child of the light. And then Satan sifted me. He showed me my love in these people was not bc of them at all.

God has shown me that if I expected even the slightest thing from them, I was not loving them rightly -- because that was not loving purely. Indeed, the source of my love for them must be solely bc of my love for God. That way, it is quite possible to keep all the results His problem. My means and responsibilities in loving others, then, remain defined by Him, not by me. Then, my only challenge is to walk in love for God by fulfilling that love faithfully, loving in outward deeds with all I have, zealous for good deeds. Titus 2:14.

Well, I was going along doing all that. I really was good at that in my church.

I was promoted from College-Career Bible Teacher to Church Chairman. God used me as He caused the Body to mend itself back together and build a large addition. The entire time, as I rightly should have, I was leaving the results all to Him, and I had my work cut out for me in the scope of my responsibilities He defined. I was zealously faithful to them.

Then, He did miracles. The building was designed by the entire body through 13 congregtation-wide meetings in 6 months; Bids all outa sight, except the one we needed, from a godly contractor; building up in good time. Building paid off in less than 3 years. Body nit together in great Spirit, ready and anxious to serve the Lord in the community. God did a mighty set of works!

Then, as the circumstances changed out from under me -- Sr. Pastor left! Term as church chair ended; new chair had no vision; new pastor had no vision. In my exasperation that the church did not follow through with its outreach mission, for which it built the addition, somewhere I stopped trusting God for the RESULTS.

I re-doubled my responsibilities and efforts to encourage a follow-thru with the vision God had given us. The new leadership would not have it; they let all the spiritual momentum dissipate over the years. So, bc they would not lead, I had to leave. I could not serve under leadership which did not take its marching orders from the Spirit of God. In fact, the underlying reason they needed my leadership to begin with, back when they were on the verge of their church split over whether to build and what, was being re-instituted -- the sow was lumbering back to the mire. So, my family and I slowly detached and slowly stopped attending.

People were actually so simple that many thought we were falling away from the faith, bc we were not at their church. In fact, we were visiting other churches and finding a new church home. I am sure there are still many there who think we are heathens bc we quit their church. No matter how much one casts the vision, ... some will be ever hearing and ever seeing, but never hearing and never seeing.

There is nothing wrong with this story, friend. Except for one thing:

I sinned by taking hold of the OUTCOME, the RESULT, and not leaving that in God's hands.

I was right to zealously serve the Lord in my responsibilities. But I had no right to expect God to do what i thought He oughta in the hearts of those people. If He sovereignly wanted to work there He would have. But I began to resent the weak leaders, rather than keeping my focus on trusting God. I thought, ... "if only those leaders would listen to the Lord!"

Brothers and sisters, that was SERIOUS error:

We should never make what is rightfully God's problem OUR PROBLEM.

As you probably know, and would likely counsel me, the prophets of the OT almost never convinced the people/leaders to turn and listen to the Lord. But they were meant to speak and do as God gave them responsibility, LEAVING THE RESULTS TO GOD!

They were NOT to turn on the people and hate them with bitterness bc they would not listen to God and do as He commands. Rather, they were to love them in spite of their obtuse spiritual eyes and ears, FROM START TO FINISH!!!

The prophet's job was to speak and do, and leave the RESULTS, in the hearts of the people, to God. --- don't misunderstand. It's not that I or some of the bitter prophets, like Jonah, thought their own words and desires and efforts should be efficient CAUSES to change hearts. No, I and the likes of Jonah, just thought that speaking the clear words of God to the people ought to stir the Spirit within them, or at least prick their conscience, and they should respond and do what the Lord was saying to do. But that, ironically, is the height of PRESUMPTUOUSNESS!!!

These have been hard lessons for me. I had the idea that if I did what God wanted then true believers would respond. But that is not true. God will not share His glory with me or anyone else. Plainly, the moment I expect or feel entitled to God delivering my desired result (even if that result is what He said He wants, both in His Word and in His Spirit) I am seeking God's glory as my own. I am unwittingly trying to be the cause of His work occurring. No, at best He has ordained us to be His catalyst. But if God doesn't cause the RESULTS we know He desires and we have come to desire, we must not get angry at:

(A) the people He gave us to serve and love and pray for, or
(B) God Himself

I never got mad at God Himself. I just blamed His people. I was bitter. ... VERY bitter. For, at the time, I did not understand how God works, not completely.

God had His reasons, I am convinced, for not allowing that Body to fulfill the vision He had given them, in spite of my Clarion calls to heed it. I still don't know, exactly, what the reasons were. It is easy to say, Satan won that one. But if Satan is winning, there is a reason. There was something fatal there I did not understand or was not given information about, which allowed Satan to win. It was not me, and it may not have been the body at large, but maybe only the leadership, or whatever. Doesn't matter.

People like to talk about it not being God's timing. That is a cop out. Truth is, people have to respond to His call, and I was angry bc they would not. God's timing is slow when people are stubborn!

But it is not up to me whether people will hear the Lord, even if I am elected to speak that call to them for a season. Some say Jonah did not want to go to Ninevah bc he didn't want them to obey God and get spared from His wrath. I think he might have felt it would be futile, that they would not listen. Ironically, this probably helped him be a very effective witness to them, bc he probably expressed how he didn't care if they lived or died, but God did. He probably ended his sermons with, "so, do what you want. Die for all I care."

I'm not sure, but I think some of the spirit of Jonah is still in me. I am as bitter as the prophet in that sense. Yet, I am driven to speak what He gives me to say. My problem is I am mixing my own impatience with His purposes.

But I am learning. I wonder if anyone else might benefit from this word.

(1) He calls us to be spiritual leaders in our spheres of influence which He has given us
(2) He defines our responsibilities there, and the purposes for those things we must do.
(3) We are to zealously serve Him in those responsibilities and purposes, doing all we can do be sensitive and relational with those we are being called to serve and love.
(4) But we are Required to Leave the RESULTS to Him, even as we continue to zealously pray for the results.

We can blow it at any of those 4 steps of being God's man.

I blew it at (4). As I said above, some people, like a friend of mine I will call Patrick, get angry at (B) God Himself. Others, like me, get angry at (A) the people He gave me to serve and love and pray for. Some get angry at both, of course.

I have often been tempted to theorize that to be angry at the one is to be angry at both, even if we are not conscious of that anger. The bitterness seems to seep to the surface.

Hence, in spite of my ongoing recovery from this blow to my faith, you can plainly see my ongoing bitterness in many of my posts.

I have been angry at God's people in general for not heeding the call, which is clear to me, and which I seek to heed, as I feel anyone should if they really belong to Him.

Some would cry out: Forgive! But I have done so, and been reconciled to those I was bitter toward. No. I am learning that my bitterness at the Body in general is indirectly anger at God, or at least faithless lovelessness toward God. I have been demanding that my efforts, and those of all His servants, be heeded accurately.

How spiritually stupid is that?

[Eyelog]

Hey brother, hows things? Of course I'm with you all the way on this, but the bold part was by far the best part for me Wooses?

blessings to you

Blessedly for me, ... and apparently you, ... it takes all kinds!

[Noeb]

Peej, you walking in total sanctification?

Did Paul say He was?

[Eyelog]

Did Paul say He was?

Brother, you sound elusive. Can we talk about you?

If not, that's okay.

So far as Paul, he was light years ahead of nearly everyone, because he proactively sought to become like Jesus in His character. But, the more you reach your desitination, the more you keep slip sliding away ... slip sliding away ... into the arms of the Master!

What would you say?

[Noeb]

Brother, you sound elusive. Can we talk about you?

If not, that's okay.

So far as Paul, he was light years ahead of nearly everyone, because he proactively sought to become like Jesus in His character. But, the more you reach your desitination, the more you keep slip sliding away ... slip sliding away ... into the arms of the Master!

What would you say?

No, not elusive. Since the writer of the mystery never revealed anything other than the need to press on for it I see no need to assume he obtained it . Therefore, I see no reason for you to ask another in comparison, and no need to compare myself either.

In my experience yes, the closer you get the further you fall, realizing he is our only hope.

[Eyelog]

No, not elusive. Since the writer of the mystery never revealed anything other than the need to press on for it I see no need to assume he obtained it . Therefore, I see no reason for you to ask another in comparison, and no need to compare myself either.

In my experience yes, the closer you get the further you fall, realizing he is our only hope.

If you are going to misapprehend the likes of me, that's one thing. But to misapprehend Paul is not far from misapprehending his Master. In that case, you are light years behind. Hopefully, at some time soon, you will see the light, and be reminded, it's not the age, ... it's the miles in yer light years you gotta watch.

[Michae]

Paul start chapter 7 by discribing the sin nature and soul union as a marriage that couldnt be dissolved accept by death. Jesus crusified the sin nature on the cross, now we are free to marry another, Christ. Then Paul goes on to speak from the in Adam standpoint of him having the knowledge now that he had a sin nature. Before Paul no one knew they had a sin nature, they knew there was sin and they committed such but didnt know the source that drives sin. So part of Romans 7 is Paul speaking from his once Adamic state, the verse 9 is the proof where he says he was alive once with out the law, Paul was never alive with out the law, until his salvation, only Adam was, Paul was born into the law as being jewish

[Noeb]

If you are going to misapprehend the likes of me, that's one thing. But to misapprehend Paul is not far from misapprehending his Master. In that case, you are light years behind. Hopefully, at some time soon, you will see the light, and be reminded, it's not the age, ... it's the miles in yer light years you gotta watch.

Interesting. I agreed with you and you come back with this? What did I misapprehend concerning either of you? What scripture do you think you have to support your claim? If your brother is in the dark about something shouldn't you be a light?

[Boo]

God has shown me that if I expected even the slightest thing from them, I was not loving them rightly -- because that was not loving purely. Indeed, the source of my love for them must be solely bc of my love for God. That way, it is quite possible to keep all the results His problem. My means and responsibilities in loving others, then, remain defined by Him, not by me. Then, my only challenge is to walk in love for God by fulfilling that love faithfully, loving in outward deeds with all I have, zealous for good deeds. Titus 2:14.


But I am learning. I wonder if anyone else might benefit from this word.

(1) He calls us to be spiritual leaders in our spheres of influence which He has given us
(2) He defines our responsibilities there, and the purposes for those things we must do.
(3) We are to zealously serve Him in those responsibilities and purposes, doing all we can do be sensitive and relational with those we are being called to serve and love.
(4) But we are Required to Leave the RESULTS to Him, even as we continue to zealously pray for the results.

We can blow it at any of those 4 steps of being God's man.

I snipped your post, but not because it did not all have significance for me, but to shorten my response.

I completely understand what you are saying. I am learning the same lesson at this moment.

I spend a great deal of time preparing what I believe to be an important message, yet people act like they appreciate the message right before they seem to ignore it completely.

I know it is not my timing that counts, nor my will. I need to just do as He leads me.

Can you imagine the frustrations of people like Moses? Can you imagine the frustrations of Paul? Compared to those guys, I have no problems.

Lord, teach me to love as You love........

[Eyelog]

I snipped your post, but not because it did not all have significance for me, but to shorten my response.

I completely understand what you are saying. I am learning the same lesson at this moment.

I spend a great deal of time preparing what I believe to be an important message, yet people act like they appreciate the message right before they seem to ignore it completely.

I know it is not my timing that counts, nor my will. I need to just do as He leads me.

Can you imagine the frustrations of people like Moses? Can you imagine the frustrations of Paul? Compared to those guys, I have no problems.

Lord, teach me to love as You love........

Well said. It was hard for me to see why He enabled me to be his man in that place for a season in which He (not me) did amazing things, and then when my time was up, HE (not me) stopped doing amazing things. Why did He do anything for them at all? And then, when it was all over and I had separated, I remembered what He had said while we were building. The congregation was not building the building for themselves. No doubt it was for God's future plans, which may be many, many years away, or at least until that generation dies in the desert, having refused to enter in. Thanks for the feedback. I knew I wasn't alone. This principle applies to all of us, all the time, including in our families, praying for the lost, and helping the helpless. in Christ,