Romans 7 without Chapters 6 and 8 is unintelligible. But what does it all mean?

[Eyelog]

Interesting. I agreed with you and you come back with this? What did I misapprehend concerning either of you? What scripture do you think you have to support your claim? If your brother is in the dark about something shouldn't you be a light?

I apologize. You caught me when I was not walking in the light. The Lord humbled me after that post. And He's now reminding me to do some restitution. Please forgive me arrogance.

[Eyelog]

Paul start chapter 7 by discribing the sin nature and soul union as a marriage that couldnt be dissolved accept by death. Jesus crusified the sin nature on the cross, now we are free to marry another, Christ. Then Paul goes on to speak from the in Adam standpoint of him having the knowledge now that he had a sin nature. Before Paul no one knew they had a sin nature, they knew there was sin and they committed such but didnt know the source that drives sin. So part of Romans 7 is Paul speaking from his once Adamic state, the verse 9 is the proof where he says he was alive once with out the law, Paul was never alive with out the law, until his salvation, only Adam was, Paul was born into the law as being jewish

I agree with you in part. I like the way you pick up on the marriage theme. But in Ch. 6 Paul is addressing all messianic humans, converted Gentiles as well as converted Jews. Same is true in ch. 8. At 7:7 to 25 or so Paul refers to himself as an unconverted but devout Jew, the kind He was hoping to help convert in romans. He was showing them that in spite of their love of the Law, they were still bound by the power or law of in which inhere's in their mortal flesh, which you are calling the sin nature, I think. He then shows that the only way to get past the flesh is to accept the Baptism into Jesus described in Chapter 6, through which we are in Christ and in the Spirit, the Old man/self/anthropos/sin nature reckoned dead, as we freely (for the first time now that we have Christ) offer our members to righteousness instead of to unrighteousness and in this way kill off the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit. that's Romans 6-8. Any point you made consistent with that account I agree with. Thanks for your feedback, Michae.

[Noeb]

I apologize. You caught me when I was not walking in the light. The Lord humbled me after that post. And He's now reminding me to do some restitution. Please forgive me arrogance.

It's ok brother! 7x70

[Michae]

I agree with you in part. I like the way you pick up on the marriage theme. But in Ch. 6 Paul is addressing all messianic humans, converted Gentiles as well as converted Jews. Same is true in ch. 8. At 7:7 to 25 or so Paul refers to himself as an unconverted but devout Jew, the kind He was hoping to help convert in romans. He was showing them that in spite of their love of the Law, they were still bound by the power or law of in which inhere's in their mortal flesh, which you are calling the sin nature, I think. He then shows that the only way to get past the flesh is to accept the Baptism into Jesus described in Chapter 6, through which we are in Christ and in the Spirit, the Old man/self/anthropos/sin nature reckoned dead, as we freely (for the first time now that we have Christ) offer our members to righteousness instead of to unrighteousness and in this way kill off the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit. that's Romans 6-8. Any point you made consistent with that account I agree with. Thanks for your feedback, Michae.

Yes i as well agree with you in part. The diffetence in what i am saying is there is no longer a sin nature to the born again, that is spirit. What we deal with now in sin is an unrenewed mind, that is soul. We nolonger are dealing with a sin nature we are dealing with a mind the mirrors the oldman sin nature but we gave a newman now and the mind has to be renewed to him, Christ in you. You see that is body, soul and spirit all an out working from the inner man. We are new creations in spirit not in soul-mind. That is where the gargantous problem we have in christianity folks have not had that revealed they spend alot of time at the whipping post of religion trying to get better, when what we need is the gospel of Christ as our life preacjed and taught so the mind gets renewed, that works out into to the life style we all desire, bless you.

[Eyelog]

Yes i as well agree with you in part. The diffetence in what i am saying is there is no longer a sin nature to the born again, that is spirit. What we deal with now in sin is an unrenewed mind, that is soul. We nolonger are dealing with a sin nature we are dealing with a mind the mirrors the oldman sin nature but we gave a newman now and the mind has to be renewed to him, Christ in you. You see that is body, soul and spirit all an out working from the inner man. We are new creations in spirit not in soul-mind. That is where the gargantous problem we have in christianity folks have not had that revealed they spend alot of time at the whipping post of religion trying to get better, when what we need is the gospel of Christ as our life preacjed and taught so the mind gets renewed, that works out into to the life style we all desire, bless you.

I like your analysis of the situation, because it is highly principled based on some solid Scriptural support -- very solid:

(1) Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. Rom 6

(2) 1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. ... 9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him. Col 3:9-10.

Yet, we get an ambiguity in Paul on this subject. On the one hand it is a past event, and on another, it is not a present condition. Here's my analysis from my blog on this. After you consider that, please comment. I will then respond with more scripture so we can lovingly discuss this and edify each other more and more, friend.

Paul demonstrates that our foreordained, predestined transformation into the likeness of Christ is not just in our eternity future. Rather, that transformation is manifold. It has many ‘folds’ or distinct aspects to it. He shows that, in fact, our destiny to be conformed to the image of the Son actually consists of three separate processes which occur in three distinct time frames. He writes:

11For the grace of God has appeared, (i) bringing salvation to all men, (ii) 12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, (iii) 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. Titus 2:11-14.
These three processes of becoming like Jesus, and by extension like the Father, refer to when, where and in what ways we will be conformed to His image:

i. We were saved, regenerated and cleansed when we were born again, so that the righteousness of Christ is credited as our righteousness through our faith (redeeming us “from every lawless deed” and purifying us), giving us our positional or imputed righteousness, which explains why we are called the “saints,” which means ‘holy ones’;

ii. We are now supposed to be progressively sanctified (‘set apart’) or transformed during our remaining lifetime on Earth, as we seek to live righteously in the present age; and

iii. We will be completed or ‘perfected’ at the Second Coming, when our mortal Bodies will be consumed by a glorified, immortal Body as we meet Jesus in the air, which is our “blessed hope” of being ultimately glorified, that is, ultimately perfected in righteousness.
Based on these three processes, we can conclude that the way or manner in which we are to become like Jesus and the Father is in our “nature” or character, as well as in our obedient actions in conformity with the Father’s will, pleasing Him. Just as Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of God, in His perfectly righteous and holy obedience to the Father’s will, both in His character and His actions, we are, in turn, to be conformed to the image of Jesus, in those very same things.

This is absolutely amazing, and it is absolutely imperative that we begin the process of believing we can be conformed into the image of Christ in His character and actions in this lifetime. We must believe it with all our Heart, Mind and Body.

This Titus passage answers the question of When we will be transformed into the likeness of Christ:

(i) positionally, when we are born again,

(ii) progressively, during this present age on Earth (after we are born again), and

(iii) ultimately, at the Second Coming.

The passage also explains Where we will (iii) receive our ultimate conformity, a glorified Body like that of Jesus: Either on the planet or in the air, where we will meet Him in the ‘rapture.’

Once we are born again, here on Earth, then, we are in (ii) that middle position of being progressively sanctified or transformed into the likeness of Christ during our remaining lifetime, in this present age. We know the present age will end upon His return. Matthew 13:40; 28:20.

Thanks for the comments on that blog you made there.

Gotta go to church now (Thank you Jesus for DST!).

In Christ,

[Michae]

Eyelog i feel the same way, there are many understanding we each go thru as believers. Hearing out one another is really the Lords wisdom for edifying the body. Nothing i like better than discussing the word, we all love the Lord and have been birthed by the same Father. I have learned thru the years to not try to convince anyone but give my understanding and talk things out if poss.

Let me do this ill quickly lay out what i see as simple salvation. The cross is where the oldman died, sin nature. When we believe on the Lord Jesus a miracle takes place we are birthed by God the Father by placing us in Christ or Christ in us, same thing. That is so simple, now voming to understand what God has done in Christ on the cross is a life time journey in the school.

You see this world was created for a training ground for those that have Christ in them. Before the cross lets say OT stuff, basically what God does is show us that what he is after can not be produced by a human being. What he is after is a person that can love Him like He loves, recipricating love and love that goes back and forth.

The scrip in eph 1 says we wete chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. That to me is the most powerful verse we have as to what was in the Fathers mind before anything was created. To get what he wanted he was going to birth it or birth His own children by chosing to take His creation, u and i, and birth Christ in them and the uniqueness of their very own expression, Christ could express Himself by their creation or the soul. Christ in spirit being expressed by the way we were created. I have to take a break but we can talk more i do have more i would like to get into. Didnt say much about the natures but we will because understanding natures and the birthing is the key that unlocks the scriptures to any hungry geart.

[Michae]

3 Prominent Characters Of Romans 7:

1- Woman (soul-mind)

2- First Husband (old nature/spirit)

3- Another Man (new Son nature)

Romans 7 is an explanation of Romans 5 and 6.

"Know ye not, brethern, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (Romans 7:1).

It becomes immediately apparent the Paul is writing to born again believers who have no understanding of the grace that is their's in Christ.

[Eyelog]

3 Prominent Characters Of Romans 7:

1- Woman (soul-mind)

2- First Husband (old nature/spirit)

3- Another Man (new Son nature)

Romans 7 is an explanation of Romans 5 and 6.

"Know ye not, brethern, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (Romans 7:1).

It becomes immediately apparent the Paul is writing to born again believers who have no understanding of the grace that is their's in Christ.

Hi, I'm not sure what you mean in precision, when you say that Rom 7 is an explanation of Rom 5. I agree that 6-8 must be read together if one wants to understand practical, progressive sanctification, but most of Rom 5 is limited to our positional sanctification and justification, and thus our imputed righteousness.

Perhaps you are saying that 6-8 are qualifying, or limiting or conditioning, the positional sanctification by showing how it actually works out in practical sanctification. If that is so, then I would agree with you.

So far as the three "characters", I agree that a little Jewish imagery is being employed there, but that only reinforces my interpretation of that portion of Rom 7, as representing a devout Jew who actually loves the law but cannot obey due to the power of sin in the sin nature. He needs the positional sanctification before he can hope to get practical sanctification, but the Gentile and the non-devout Jew, even if they have gained positional sanctification through faith in Christ, are struggling with both practical problems: (1) they don't already love the law of God in their heart and (2) the sin nature is alive and well in their bodies, minds and hearts.

Thus, all believers suffer from what Romans 6 describes, and only very devout Jews (and maybe a few Gentiles who were trying to be Jews or who loved the law of God anyway) are described by Rom 7's latter portion. But all groups of true believers are described in Rom 8 as solving the two problems in these ways:

(1) You don't love the law? No problem; set your mind on the things of the Spirit and trust in the promises of God on the subject of practical sanctification; and
(2) The sin nature has your body doing evil despite what your mind wants? No problem;kill off the deeds of the sin nature by the Spirit of God. That is, walk in the Spirit.

On the other hand, if by Rom 5 being explained by 7 & 6 you mean the first part of Romans 5, then I need to back peddle a bit. Here's the text, one which I myself agree is highly significant to practical sanctification:

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

But I disagree that Romans 6-7 elucidates Rom 1-5. Actually, I think Rom 6-8 describes methods 1-3 of how to abide in Christ only, but the gains of those are generally moment to moment, with only some slow development over a lengthy period of time.

On the other hand, Rom 5:1-5 does NOT speak of employing any of those three methods to abide in Christ and obey. That passage is not elucidated by Rom 6-8, at all. Instead, those first 5 verses of Romans 5 speak of progressive permanent spiritual growth, not merely moment to moment overcoming of the sin nature.

Or, do you have a better interpretation.

[Michae]

I agree with you for the most part, do you think you could divide soul and spirit in your thoughts so we can better under stand what is being said.

I.E. Progressive sanctification would be soulish since scripture saids "Christ was made unto us sanctification", that is spirit-nature, 1Cor 1:30.

Thanks

[Michae]

The law was the vehicle the mind used to suppress the sin nature even tho it , the mind, didnt know it had a sin nature. It knew sin because of the law but didnt know the driving source was a nature. The mind could only suppress the sin nature but it could not change the nature, that takes a death, the cross.

The idea scenario would be to have a mind that is compatible with the nature. Thats what, Romans 1, calls a reprobate mind. That is a mind that doesnt use the law to suppress the sin nature, it was compatible with the sin nature.

So the only way a born again believer has access to the understanding of Christ in us nature is by grace. Grace is possessing the right nature, by grace the mind can be renewed to undetstand its new Christ nature in you

[Eyelog]

The law was the vehicle the mind used to suppress the sin nature even tho it , the mind, didnt know it had a sin nature. It knew sin because of the law but didnt know the driving source was a nature. The mind could only suppress the sin nature but it could not change the nature, that takes a death, the cross.

The idea scenario would be to have a mind that is compatible with the nature. Thats what, Romans 1, calls a reprobate mind. That is a mind that doesnt use the law to suppress the sin nature, it was compatible with the sin nature.

So the only way a born again believer has access to the understanding of Christ in us nature is by grace. Grace is possessing the right nature, by grace the mind can be renewed to undetstand its new Christ nature in you

Well,Michae, may the Lord bless you for this#25 and #24, below. You are very perceptive and you have a good attitude. I appreciate that, ... a lot.

You said in #24:

could [you] divide soul and spirit in your thoughts[, Eyelog,] so we can better understand what is being said.

I.E. Progressive sanctification would be soulish since scripture says, "Christ has made unto us sanctification", that is, [He has made us unto the] spirit-nature, [or spiritual nature] 1Cor 1:30.

Yes, if by or consistent-with, or through or by means of means in the arsenal of, the sin nature ('flesh' sarx) we are trying to kill off or in any way reform the heart (kardia), Mind (nous/dianoia) or Body (soma), then it is absolutely true we will just get more of the same sin nature and its unrighteous fruit, time after time. The most we can do is change what form the sin nature comes out in and when and where, through self-control motivated by the Sin Nature realizing it must change a bit in order to maximize the payoff to its self-serving desires.

I appreciate this question as well as you discussion in #25 on this. However, I had to add some words to help me understand what you were saying. Below is my interpretation of what you were saying with my words added in blue with brackets. Please tell me if I misunderstood your point, as i have interpreted it. If not, please forgive me and, by all means, correct me:

Michae said: [Before we were saved, and even after being born again, but before we were mind-renewed enough to start growing in Christ by taking charge over the sin nature] the law was the vehicle the mind used to suppress the sin nature even though the mind didn't know it had a sin nature. It knew [or was able to identify what is] sin because of the law [which, like a school master, taught the old self what was right and wrong,] but [the mind] didnt know the driving source was a nature[, in this case, the sin nature, the Flesh]. The mind could only suppress the sin nature but it could not change that nature; that takes a death, [hence, that's the direct reason Jesus went to] the cross. The ideal scenario [from the flesh's point of view, i take it] would be to have a mind that is compatible with the [sin] nature. Thats what, Romans 1, calls a reprobate mind. That is a mind that doesnt use the law to suppress the sin nature, that mind is compatible [happy with and not in conflict] with the sin nature.

Alright. Very good point to make for the sake of deep discussion, seeking greater and greater refinement and specificity in our understanding of these matters. Thank you. I hope I read you correctly.

Okay. Well, you asked me to distinguish what is "soul-ish" from what is "spiritual", and you also focus on the "mind" as the human faculty for change used by the "sin nature" to reform itself to get what the sin nature wants. These terms must be explained. Yes. But then you say, combining your two posts, the following:

So the only way a born again believer has access to the understanding of Christ in us nature is by grace. Grace is possessing the right nature, by grace the mind can be renewed to undetstand its new Christ nature in you [#25].

Progressive sanctification would be soulish since scripture saids "Christ was made unto us sanctification", that is spirit-nature, 1Cor 1:30. [#24].

Let me emphasize my view that Grace is a great word. We need all we can get of grace. But the more we call everything we receive from God Grace, (a) the more we are accurate in general, but (b) the less we are explaining any point, except that we got it all from Him, and we have nothing we can claim we ultimately originated. Hence, all the glory goes to Him, lest any man should boast of sanctification (postiionally, progressively or ultimately), and lest any man should boast of his salvation. Fine. Praise the Lord! The author and perfecter of our Faith, love, hope, justification and sanctification. Amen and amen!!!

Now, let's lift the lid off the Grace holy of holies Ark and see what is inside:

1. You are saying the only way believers can understand what it means to have a nature in which Christ is in us is if we already have that nature, and it is through that very nature that the mind gets renewed to understand its new nature, "which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Col 1:27.

2. I think you are reasoning in the same manner some reason about intelligent design. The eyeball is so complex that it can't progressively develop and then suddenly become functional. If it required that to develop, it would never develop, because its uselessness would not survive the natural selection process of the theory of evolution, and so on.

Here, you are saying that (a) the sin nature can't produce a mind capable of understanding the spiritual nature (Christ in you), let alone produce the spiritual nature itself. (b) If we say there is progressive sanctification, then we are saying that what cause us to progressively become sanctified is the sin nature. Therefore, since only one of the two, a or b, can be accurate, in that they contradict each other, we must choose. And you hold to a, of course.

3. You then quote 1 Corinthians 1:30 to prove your point that (a) is the correct choice:

³⁰But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Good enough. Alright. Good, logical argument. Good use of Scripture to reason from the Scripture to make your points. Bravo.

Also, good verse. But does it refer to positional, progressive or ultimate sanctification, or all three. Oops. The fallacy which defeats your argument is in its equivocation on what "sanctification is and means."

I say that in 1 Cor 1 the term means all three, though it is a true, but vague verse. It says God is the one who makes us sanctified. Amen. I agree. But how He does so in each of the three phases differs. Here's a little chart:

Phase of Spiritual Life	Status of Sanctification	Means	When
Positional Sanctification	Justified/Imputed Righteousness	Jesus Christ work on Cross – Grace to us	As we are Born Again
Progressive Sanctification	Putting off and putting the old self for the new over time during our lifetime, getting more righteous and less unrighteous in our character.	Cooperative action between the regenerate spirit in the born again person and the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ	From the moment of rebirth until He returns or we physically die
Ultimate Sanctification	Receive a glorified body, and all unrighteousness will be burnt away from us.	The Holy Spirit will baptize us with fire as Jesus judges our deeds and heart, and miraculously give us a glorified body like Jesus’	When He returns

4. Therefore, when you ask me to distinguish what is "soul-ish" from what is "spiritual", and you focus on the "mind" as the human faculty for change used by the "sin nature" to reform itself to get what the sin nature wants, and then you argue that mind renewal requires that we already have the new nature (Christ in you), it's like you are saying there is nothing left to sanctify or change. I guess you are saying that pinches progressive sanctification out of my chart.

5. Well, I could go straight to the progressive sanctification verses, but I won't use my limited time right now for that purpose. Instead, I will just argue based on general spiritual principles and go after cites later if you have more questions.

When we are born again, we still need mind renewal. Paul does not preach to the unsaved to get the renewing of their minds, or to put off the old self and put on the new. In fact, in Col 3 he speaks of that in the past tense (referring to what we gained positionally), and then admonishes believers to put off and put on in this present lifetime (referring to the progressive). He is at that moment engaging in mind renewal teaching. Same goes for Eph 4, where the taking off and putting on is all present tense with no past tense at all. Then, take Rom 6, where the crucification and death fo the sin nature or flesh or old man or old nature is past tense in that it died with Christ on the cross. But then Paul goes on in that chapter telling believers to not offer parts of body to unrighteousness but to rightoeusness, which is like the putting on and putting off activitiy in the progressiveness aspect to it. i could go on to James and Peter and Hebrws writer. I could even use John, who confuses many by speaking a lot about our positional status as a means to motivate us to live up to it. Jesus did say to take up the cross daily and follow Him. That's progressive. But some argue he said that before it was positional, and now they agree with your argument that there is no progressive. I not only disagree with that, but i think it is heresy, and I think it is crippling error which Satan loves. God allows the lack of clarity in His Word. Why? So we will dig and find the truth and put it into pracitce. Why? Because without face it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe he exists and he is a rewardeer of those who earnestly seek Him. Heb 11:4. He wants us to seek Him and his truth, and to practice it. This is also a way he separates out those who are elect from those who are not. i could go on, causing many to despise me even more. But that's enough.

6. Therefore, ask, seek, knock, and the door to progressive sanctification will be opened to you, just as it was for me. If anyone thinks that's a perversion of Scripture to apply that asking-seeking-knocking-finding principle to this process of drawing the truth from the Word and putting it into pracitce, then they don't understand why they are supposed to read Scripture, and they are not likely to grow very much in their life time.

Great talking with you, friend. Love in Christ,

[Michae]

Yes Eyelog thank you and its my pleasure to hang out and fellowship with u guys.

I wanted make a quick reply, my first comment is on heart and soul they are the same.

But what really catchs my attention in your wording something to the effect "as we clean ourselves up".

And seems what u are saying about the sin nature is we still have one is that a right interpretation on my part.

The sin nature is what was crusified in Christ on the cross. I do understand what u are saying but it is nolonger a sin nature in the believer, it is a mind thing now but in all fairness the mind was trained by the sin nature so they look alot alike but it nolonger exists in the believer. Most of us have never really given that alot of thought and have thrown the scriptures around very loosely like well does it really matter but yes it does matter when it comes to our growth in Christ.

Seeing two diff natures and being able to put them in the proper place is tantamount to our growth.

Seeing A little thing such as the birthing where we were born again can open all the scriptures up to a believer. So the smallest things big come enormous if not dividing into soul and spirit, law and grace, both natures have to be divided to move on into the power of grace and the Christ Life.

[ClayInHisHands]

I thought the "SIN NATURE" was the same as the flesh? With that said...the flesh and it's works/deeds were nailed and considered dead positionally because obviously we still have a flesh and still at times walk after the flesh. Hence, we have to putt off the deeds of the flesh. They won't just dissappear.




I don't like the term sin nature...it implies or rather devalues what the flesh and it's deeds are really. I don't know if I'm makin sense or not. I may be being a little vague and not expressing my point 100 percent..


Time will tell.

[Eyelog]

Yes Eyelog thank you and its my pleasure to hang out and fellowship with u guys.

I wanted make a quick reply, my first comment is on heart and soul they are the same.

But what really catchs my attention in your wording something to the effect "as we clean ourselves up".

And seems what u are saying about the sin nature is we still have one is that a right interpretation on my part.

The sin nature is what was crusified in Christ on the cross. I do understand what u are saying but it is nolonger a sin nature in the believer, it is a mind thing now but in all fairness the mind was trained by the sin nature so they look alot alike but it nolonger exists in the believer. Most of us have never really given that alot of thought and have thrown the scriptures around very loosely like well does it really matter but yes it does matter when it comes to our growth in Christ.

Seeing two diff natures and being able to put them in the proper place is tantamount to our growth.

Seeing A little thing such as the birthing where we were born again can open all the scriptures up to a believer. So the smallest things big come enormous if not dividing into soul and spirit, law and grace, both natures have to be divided to move on into the power of grace and the Christ Life.

I have blogs with lots of documentation and some with very little. I respect a guy who gets it out there with or without citation. But a time comes when, if we wish to continue the edification, it is time to get specific.

If you don't mind brother, write what you just said and at the same time QUOTING, not just citing, the passages which support your each and every allegation which differs from mine. That way, I can see the extent to which you are basing your assertions on your own understanding of Scripture or merely re-stating a mainline way of thinking you have inherited. This would greatly edify me. For, if I am wrong, only Scripture, as illumined by the Spirit, will help me to see the light.

On the other hand, I will reward any such effort by quoting any Scritpure I rely upon.

Challenge: Fellowship over the Word on a somewhat controversial subject and still make it a non-debate, but a mutual edification session.

I through down the gauntlet in love for the brethren, and you in particular in Christ.

[Eyelog]

I thought the "SIN NATURE" was the same as the flesh? With that said...the flesh and it's works/deeds were nailed and considered dead positionally because obviously we still have a flesh and still at times walk after the flesh. Hence, we have to putt off the deeds of the flesh. They won't just dissappear.




I don't like the term sin nature...it implies or rather devalues what the flesh and it's deeds are really. I don't know if I'm makin sense or not. I may be being a little vague and not expressing my point 100 percent..


Time will tell.

To quote Eliza Doolittle from "My Fair Lady," ... "Words, words, words! All I ever hear is words. Don't tell me you love me. show me."

Semantics are a huge challenge if you want to get deep as a believer in Christ, who IS the Word!

As you say, in your own way, beware the glibbery glibbery!

God bless,