Article: Assumptions

[jrlaw]

You can view the page at http://bibleforums.org/content.php/141-Assumptions

[Kahtar]

At first, I thought the article was about making assumptions in scripture. It sounded like an interesting topic. Then I discovered it is just another rapture post. Oh well.
Regarding the idea of making assumptions, I have noticed that in spite of all the books, articles, posts, blogs, etc. that have been written with people's varying opinions regarding various portions of scripture, not a single one of them have added anything or taken anything at all from my Bible. My Bible has remained the same, nothing added or taken away, for decades. Personally, I think it's a bit of a stretch to make the assumption that stating one's opinion either adds or takes away from scripture, or that the person will suffer being accursed for stating it.
Even in your article about assumptions, your assumptions about the Rapture did not change my Bible one iota.

[Diggindeeper]

I too thought this would be an interesting article about assumptions. But, what I read was simply an entire article that wreaked with assumptions contrary to scripture. Just another rapture article, this one just happens to be 'mid-trib' instead of -pre-trib'. But nertheless...filled with assumption after assumption. Sorry, I used to believe as you do, but no more. I have seen the fact that what you refer to as 'the tribulation' is NOT THE WRATH OF GOD! The Bible itself describes vividly exactly what the 'wrath of God' is and it is found in Rev. 15 and 16! In the Bible there is only ONE second coming... AT THE LAST TRUMP! At the time of the HARVEST! Rev. 14:14-19 1 Cor. 15:51-52 Matt. 13:36-42

[Desperaux]

You can view the page at http://bibleforums.org/content.php/141-Assumptions

Thank you for that article, despite the jaded comments that have gone before this.

[txchvs]

It was interesting that you take the Mid-trib position, I have always liked it. Anyway, extraordinary theme about assumptions and how they influence a clear understanding. I think we can agree that the resurrection of the Church is a predictive prophecy without ambiguity, regardless of when you think it will happen during the Tribulation. Grace and peace, Mark

[jrlaw]

It was interesting that you take the Mid-trib position, I have always liked it. Anyway, extraordinary theme about assumptions and how they influence a clear understanding. I think we can agree that the resurrection of the Church is a predictive prophecy without ambiguity, regardless of when you think it will happen during the Tribulation. Grace and peace, Mark

Thank you for reading with an open mind. I don't discount a pre-trib position but state the mid-trib is possible and even more likely. I do state the Pre-Trib doctrine is a danger to the Church because it could lead to deception. It is best to keep an open mind and be watchful with out preconceptions.

[saltyfun]

I have been reading this post and found it very enlightening. I know that every one of us has an opinion or belief about the Word of God, however, the Bible does admonish that we should 'study to show ourselves approved' and also 'rightly dividing the Word of Truth.' I would like to propose these three questions @jrlaw: 1) Is there any evidence to suggest that we are currently in the millennium (thus implying that the tribulation is past)?

2) Has there been any set of world events in history that matches the description of the tribulation given in the Bible (implying that the tribulation is either past or present)?

3) Are there any prerequisite conditions that would have to be met in order for certain tribulation events to take place; and if so, have they been met (indicating that the fulfillment of tribulation prophecy must be in the future)?

When we compare what we know about the millennium to the present age in which we live, there is simply no evidence to support the idea that we could be in the millennium now; you would think that would be fairly obvious, and it is....

Every prophecy of the second coming in which a chronological relationship with either the tribulation or the millennium is given, places the second coming of Christ either immediately at the end of the tribulation, or immediately prior to the inception of the millennial kingdom (note especially Zech. 14:1-11, Matt. 24:29-31 and Rev. 19:11-20:6).

If we really want to know when the millennium is going to take place, we should listen to the words of Christ in Matthew 25:31-34. This is not a reference to some “mystical,” or “spiritual” coming; Jesus had just described His second coming with His
angels in great detail within the context of this discourse (Matt 24: 3-31). He now associates the inauguration of His kingdom with that coming.
John’s description in Revelation 19:11-20:4.There is no question that this is a description of Christ’s second coming. We see in this description, as in the rest, that Christ does not return alone, He returns with what are here described as “the armies of Heaven,” undoubtedly a reference to the angels (cf. 19:17-18; 20:1-3; Matt. 24:29-31). He will strike down His enemies and rule the earth “with an iron rod.” Satan will be bound and sealed in the Abyss, and the saints will be resurrected from their graves to rule with Christ during the millennium.

To determine whether the tribulation events have been fulfilled in any prior age since the time of the New Testament, or are being fulfilled at the present, the reader need only compare the descriptions given of the tribulation with history.

[jrlaw]

The short answers:
1) no
2) no
3) no

I don't mean to be abrupt and would be happy to discuss further, but I believe for a number of reasons the millennium will be a literal 1000 period preceded by the yet to come Tribulation. The Tribulation is such an earthshaking event, (especially the 2nd half, that I find not even a hint in recorded history that this event has taken place. In my opinion, you have answered your own questions correctly.

[JCE]

one should never assume and read what is written,change nothing.revelations is a revealing of your heart your soul,your understanding.what you see is what you are in your heart.do you see evil where there is none to be seen?

[Kaboose]

I don't know if anyone can say 100% about the rapture event. But God won't let his Church (the Bride of Christ) be subject to his wrath and punishment. This only makes sense, he isn't going to beat the crapola out of his bride before the wedding lol.
The tribulation I believe is meant for the Jewish and/or unbelievers to give them one last chance to accept Christ through hardship, that is the purpose I think, but I am not 100% sure either. The Church is mentioned in the beginning of Rev. and after that the book becomes very Jewish in its symbolism and everything. The Church returns with Christ then later. The rapture Christ meets the Church in the air, but it isn't his actual 2nd coming at that time.

[jesse]

This is a topic i often wonder about. We do have such inquisitive minds... and there is so much seemingly left to be put together from the pieces of pictures we have.... and yet... it is SO easy to assume... SO easy to caught up in conjecture... I often wonder if any of the official stances of groups and sects is correct. I also most importantly wonder if there is so much speculation because we are supposed to focus more on the gospel and not get caught up in the rest? I don't know.

[ronshua]

Greetings Saints , since short pants I've never believed in any word not in early MSS .

Hebrews 9:27-28
and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this -- judgment,
so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation! [ A SECOND TIME ! ] Every one gets a personal resurrection , in the twinkling of an eye .

John 8:51-52
verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see -- to the age.'
The Jews, therefore, said to him, `Now we have known that thou hast a demon; Abraham did die, and the prophets, and thou dost say, If any one may keep my word, he shall not taste of death -- to the age!

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not a God of dead men, but of living.' , Mark 12:27 , Luke 20:38 .

I seen at an early age Matthew chapters 23 , 24 & 25
are one discourse , with most "private" . The big , in your eye is , the entire teaching is to THEM , THERE , THEN and not a tittle or tat to any after 70 AD . When YOU SEE , HEAR ," Tell ( US ), `Take heed that no one may lead ( YOU ) astray," , not us , THEM , the end of the first covenant .

NOT OUR MAIL !

Revelation 1, "...what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly..."
19 `Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

Please look at John's instructions . He was to "Write the things that thou hast seen" , "things that are" and
check this out ," the things that are about to come after these things ==> THINGS THAT ARE .
ALL , QUICKLY . No FUTURE thing at all . Just what was about to happen to the Assembles , that don't exist anymore , a get out of Dodge , if you will , QUICKLY !

22: 19 and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'
20 he saith -- who is testifying these things -- `Yes, I come quickly!' Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus!
(YLT)


Peace .

[Eyelog]

Nice. Unfortunately, believers are already being persecuted by anitchrists, and THE Antichrist will do the same. He is not the anti-Jew. He is not the anti-Islam, nor the anti-neo-pagan humanist.

It will be believers who will suffer under the authority he will be given to persecute
"the saints." Revelation 13:

1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. .

Then the know it alls said, "Oh, no. Those are post-rapture saints."

Who are the saints? Everyone whose name is written in the Book of Life of the Lamb who was slain from the Foundation of the World.

Paul himself was an anti-christ before He was saved:

9 “So then, I thought to myself that I had to do many things hostile to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them. 11 And as I punished them often in all the synagogues, I tried to force them to blaspheme; and being furiously enraged at them, I kept pursuing them even to foreign cities

What evidence do you have, besides your speculative read of Matthew, which supports the idea that such persecution and rough things happening were past tense. Indeed, MT 24-25 is amazingly good proof that we will be here for the persecution by THE Antichrist, and that Jesus isn't rapturing anyone until the Second Coming. We are not appointed to wrath, so we won't be harmed by the pouring out of wrath on the earth (since that will either happen during the Second Coming but after the rapture or during the Second Coming after we are protected from the outpour of wrath.

But we all experience tsunamis and earthquakes, fires, and natural disasters nowaday and before anyway. Indeed, we are subject to the lesser instantiataions of the spirit of the Antichrist even in the USA, if we want to stand for Christ unwavering and live a glodly life in Him.

So, I disagree with your position, and I hope you will revise it one day, after you re-open your mind to the Scriptures dealing with it, in a fresh, unadulterated way. Satan is the deceiver, and he wants people to buy what most of the church in the USA is buying: A pre-trib rapture.

Believe me, the immanent coming of Christ is a doctrine of men, not of Scripture. It was thought necessary in order to give people a reason to fear the Lord in the face of the false once-saved-always-saved hyper-grace delusion, especially in a time and country where persecution seemed quite unlikely. But as empirical evidence, ask yourself what the believers in the countries where persecution reigns think about a pre-trib rapture and this supposed inability to apostasize.

We must not forget that just as in the days of Paul persecuting the Body, trying to get people to "blaspheme", the whole point of persecution is to bring about mass-apostasy.

And guess what: Such persecution works to keep Billions from knowing Him, and staying with Him to the end, even today. Just wait until it heats up over here, which it will do, in the not so distant future.

God bless, brother. Sorry to have to disagree. It is not personal, at all.

[Eyelog]

This is addressed to the OP: That there will be no pre-persecution-of-the Saints-by-THE Antichrist-rapture is not an assumption. It is clear in Scripture. You need to apply your own hermeneutic, which is mostly correct, to the right Scriptures:

"When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise."[ix] Pre-Trib.Org

[EarlyCall]

I too thought this would be an interesting article about assumptions. But, what I read was simply an entire article that wreaked with assumptions contrary to scripture. Just another rapture article, this one just happens to be 'mid-trib' instead of -pre-trib'. But nertheless...filled with assumption after assumption. Sorry, I used to believe as you do, but no more. I have seen the fact that what you refer to as 'the tribulation' is NOT THE WRATH OF GOD! The Bible itself describes vividly exactly what the 'wrath of God' is and it is found in Rev. 15 and 16! In the Bible there is only ONE second coming... AT THE LAST TRUMP! At the time of the HARVEST! Rev. 14:14-19 1 Cor. 15:51-52 Matt. 13:36-42

I didn't read the article and I know what you mean and where you are coming from. I have simply chosen over the years to not know. My reason for this is because of what you mention about the wrath of God in Revelation. I have read Revelation quite a few times over my life and understand but a little only. Still, my understanding is that God judges His own but pours out His wrath upon the un-godly. If this is so, my question becomes: How does God pour out His wrath upon the earth as is described in Revelation without that wrath also being upon the Christians?

It is an easy answer to my question when one mentions the stinging of those bearing the mark for a period of time. Such wrath is limited in nature. However, when one mentions that one-third of the earth is burned and one-third this or that of the entire world and entire population of the world, it becomes much more difficult I think to claim the Christians will be isolated from this. While I admit it would be possible for God to do so, I can see no way imaginable of it being so. I hesitate to easily claim isolation in such things for the Christian. I suppose one could claim such occurrences would not be part of God's wrath upon the wicked, but I would not be able to bring myself to agree with that.

Anyway, I hope what I've said makes sense, and that is where I wonder if in fact God might deliver pre-tribulation Christians out of this world from His coming wrath. If this were to be so, that would of course leave the question still of God's wrath being poured out upon the wicked during the tribulation and those of course there would still be Christians in the world; they would just be those having become Christians after the rapture if you will. This of course would bring us full circle to where I started!

It seems a question for which there is no answer other than that which time will reveal.