Believers: Jews should remain Jews & Gentiles should remain Gentiles

[LookingUp]

I still haven't figured out why some insist that a Jew must become a Gentile (i.e. forsake the Law of Moses) to be a believer in Jesus.

The Jewish disciples of Jesus were zealous for the Law. “And when they heard it they began glorifying God, and they said to him, ‘You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law’” (Acts 21:20). And we see that "zealous for the Law" includes not forsaking Moses, circumcision, and walking according to the customs (Acts 21:21).

The point of the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 was to clarify once and for all that Gentiles don’t have to become Jews (i.e. get circumcised) to be grafted into the Olive Tree and partake of Israel’s blessings. If a Gentile doesn’t have to become a Jew to be a believer in Jesus, why would a Jew have to become a Gentile to be a believer in Jesus?

What passages convince you that a Jewish disciple of Jesus should stop being "zealous for the Law"?

[ewq1938]

I still haven't figured out why some insist that a Jew must become a Gentile (i.e. forsake the Law of Moses) to be a believer in Jesus.

Forsaking the law, or better said, "being free of the law" would not make a Jew a Gentile.

What passages convince you that a Jewish disciple of Jesus should stop being "zealous for the Law"?

I believe allowing Jews to maintain some traditions etc etc was only for those raised Jewish who converted so it wasn't too much of a culture shock. I don't believe that is meant for those not raised Jewish but who have that physical heritage.

Either way, Paul makes it quite clear regarding adherence to the old law:

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

The subject of these verses is the law.


Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

What came at Sinai? The law! And the law came as part of the Sinai Covenant! And that covenant which contained the law "gendereth to bondage" which means to "create bondage".

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

And thus we should be free and not be put in bondage by the old covenant and the law. Sin isn't even mentioned here so we cannot replace the law and the covenant with "sin" and alter Paul's concise words, context nor subject.

I know it's hard, maybe even impossible for some to accept this but it's in black and white.

Gal_4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

He says this because what he is talking about made him many enemies but it was only the truth.

[LookingUp]

Forsaking the law, or better said, "being free of the law" would not make a Jew a Gentile.

I suppose they’d always be Jewish whether they followed the Mosaic Law or not, but many disciples of Christ mock, look down on, command, strongly suggest that, etc. Jewish disciples forsake the Law of Moses even though they desire to circumcise their children according to the Law of Moses and follow the customs of the Law. I’d like to know which Scripture gives a disciple of Jesus the authority to command or even ask another disciple of Jesus to forsake the Law of Moses when James, Peter and the other Jewish disciples continued to be “zealous for the Law” including circumcising their children and following the customs?

I believe allowing Jews to maintain some traditions etc etc

“Allowing”? Can you point me to any Scripture at all which indicates that a disciple of Christ has the authority to disallow another disciple of Christ to observe any particular tradition?

was only for those raised Jewish who converted so it wasn't too much of a culture shock. I don't believe that is meant for those not raised Jewish but who have that physical heritage.

How did you come to this conclusion?

Either way, Paul makes it quite clear regarding adherence to the old law:

What does Paul make clear regarding adherence to the “old law”?

Tell me how it’s “bad” to adhere to the Law? It’s bad to not covet? It’s bad to not commit adultery? It’s bad to circumcise your son?

The Law says that if you don’t adhere, then you must pay. That sounds bad, at least for the one who breaks the Law.

So, the part of the Law that says “Do this and don’t do that” does not put one in bondage. On the contrary, those Laws are good. It is the part of the Law that says, “If you don’t do this and if you do that, you will pay” that puts one in bondage/prison. The Law that says, “Do not speed” is a good Law. The Law that says, “If you speed, you will pay,” puts one in bondage/prison because all have sped at one time or another.

Jews are freed from the part of the Law that puts one in bondage/prison. But that doesn’t mean that the speeding law becomes inoperative or “bad.” It is a good Law that should be obeyed.

[ewq1938]

I’d like to know which Scripture gives a disciple of Jesus the authority to command or even ask another disciple of Jesus to forsake the Law of Moses when James, Peter and the other Jewish disciples continued to be “zealous for the Law” including circumcising their children and following the customs?

While I understand in the beginning there were different things told to the gentiles than the Jews that converted but do you really think the body of Christ was meant to be divided between law keepers and those not commanded to follow the law? Especially everything Paul says about that law? Paul states that he would come to those under the law as one that was under the law and to those not under the law, he came to them as not under the law. It was all about converts, helping them make the transition in the easiest way possible.

“Allowing”? Can you point me to any Scripture at all which indicates that a disciple of Christ has the authority to disallow another disciple of Christ to observe any particular tradition?

I believe even what I posted from Paul is enough to see that being under the law was no great thing and was bondage. I'm not sure he commanded it, but he sure made being under a law more negative than being free of it.

How did you come to this conclusion?

Just an overall observance from reading the NT that deals with issues of the law.

What does Paul make clear regarding adherence to the “old law”?

It's all there in the quote from Galations.

Tell me how it’s “bad” to adhere to the Law? It’s bad to not covet? It’s bad to not commit adultery? It’s bad to circumcise your son?

Paul wrote that it was bondage. He certainly isn't speaking of moral things that the law of Christ still supports. As for circumcision, it was a choice not a command.

The Law says that if you don’t adhere, then you must pay. That sounds bad, at least for the one who breaks the Law.

So, the part of the Law that says “Do this and don’t do that” does not put one in bondage. On the contrary, those Laws are good.

All I can do is quote Paul, "for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar"

Jews are freed from the part of the Law that puts one in bondage/prison. But that doesn’t mean that the speeding law becomes inoperative or “bad.” It is a good Law that should be obeyed.

Paul makes no special distinction. He speaks of the entire law, the first covenant as a whole. The good parts of the law now exist in the law of Christ.

[ewq1938]

More from Paul:

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Before faith, Jews such as Paul were under the law.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

But Jews that received that faith are no longer under the law!


Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And here we have it. This is applied to all, whether Jew or not because all are one in Christ and thus all who receive the faith and have put on Christ should not be under the law any further, as Paul was no longer.

Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


Romans 10:4

(ASV) For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.

(BBE) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who has faith.

(CEV) But Christ makes the Law no longer necessary for those who become acceptable to God by faith.

(Darby) For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes.

(DRB) For the end of the law is Christ: unto justice to everyone that believeth.

(ESV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

(ISV) For the Messiah is the culmination of the Law as far as righteousness is concerned for everyone who believes.

(KJV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

(LITV) For Christ is the end of Law for righteousness to everyone that believes.

(MKJV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes.

(YLT) For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing,

[LookingUp]

While I understand in the beginning there were different things told to the gentiles than the Jews that converted but do you really think the body of Christ was meant to be divided between law keepers and those not commanded to follow the law?

I never said that the body of Christ was meant to be divided between Mosaic Law keepers and those not commanded to follow the Mosaic Law. Following the Mosaic Law (i.e. being Jew) and not following the Mosaic Law (i.e. being Gentile) does not divide disciples of Christ Jesus. How could following tradition divide something united by the Spirit of God? Tradition has that much power?

Especially everything Paul says about that law? Paul states that he would come to those under the law as one that was under the law and to those not under the law, he came to them as not under the law. It was all about converts, helping them make the transition in the easiest way possible.

Peter, James and the other Jewish disciples of Christ continued to be zealous for the Law, the Mosaic Law. In Acts, Paul didn’t need to come to the Jewish disciples of Jesus as anything at all since they were ALREADY believers of Jesus as Christ/Messiah.

I believe even what I posted from Paul is enough to see that being under the law was no great thing and was bondage.

Obeying the law that says, “Do not speed,” is no great thing? Isn’t “Do not speed” a good law? What creates the bondage to the law that says, “Do not speed”?

I'm not sure he commanded it, but he sure made being under a law more negative than being free of it.

Is being free to speed good thing? Seems like many would die as a result of being free to speed whenever you are in a hurry. On the other hand, is being free from the consequences of breaking the law of speeding a good thing? Doesn’t mean that speeding becomes a good thing. Not speeding still saves many lives. However, the consequences of breaking that law of speeding (which EVERYONE has done!) puts ALL in bondage/prison. How does one get OUT?

Just an overall observance from reading the NT that deals with issues of the law.

It's all there in the quote from Galations.

What does Paul make clear regarding adherence to the “old law”?

Paul wrote that it was bondage. He certainly isn't speaking of moral things that the law of Christ still supports. As for circumcision, it was a choice not a command.

Tell me how it’s “bondage” to adhere to the Law? It’s bondage to not covet? It’s bondage to not commit adultery? It’s bondage to circumcise your son?

All I can do is quote Paul, "for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar"

All you can do is quote Paul? What the heck does that mean? I can quote Paul too. Anyone can quote Paul. Can you tell me what Paul meant by the quote you are posting? As far as I can tell by the quote, the Mosaic Covenant produced bondage because people are of flesh and they sin. “Do not speed” is not what puts one in bondage. “Do not speed” is GOOD because it keeps people from being KILLED. “If you speed, you will PAY” puts people in bondage/prison, because ALL speed and therefore ALL will be put in bondage/prision!

Paul makes no special distinction. He speaks of the entire law, the first covenant as a whole. The good parts of the law now exist in the law of Christ.

Paul does NOT speak of the entire Law. How could, “Do not covet” put one in bondage? It is GOOD! It is the consequences/payment of not obeying the Law that puts one in bondage/prison.

[ewq1938]

This looks like it will just go in circle, after circle, after circle and I have no desire for that. If anyone else wants to that's fine. I'm not interested in that personally.

I never said that the body of Christ was meant to be divided between Mosaic Law keepers and those not commanded to follow the Mosaic Law. Following the Mosaic Law (i.e. being Jew) and not following the Mosaic Law (i.e. being Gentile) does not divide disciples of Christ Jesus. How could following tradition divide something united by the Spirit of God? Tradition has that much power?

Peter, James and the other Jewish disciples of Christ continued to be zealous for the Law, the Mosaic Law. In Acts, Paul didn’t need to come to the Jewish disciples of Jesus as anything at all since they were ALREADY believers of Jesus as Christ/Messiah.

Obeying the law that says, “Do not speed,” is no great thing? Isn’t “Do not speed” a good law? What creates the bondage to the law that says, “Do not speed”?

Is being free to speed good thing? Seems like many would die as a result of being free to speed whenever you are in a hurry. On the other hand, is being free from the consequences of breaking the law of speeding a good thing? Doesn’t mean that speeding becomes a good thing. Not speeding still saves many lives. However, the consequences of breaking that law of speeding (which EVERYONE has done!) puts ALL in bondage/prison. How does one get OUT?

What does Paul make clear regarding adherence to the “old law”?

Tell me how it’s “bondage” to adhere to the Law? It’s bondage to not covet? It’s bondage to not commit adultery? It’s bondage to circumcise your son?

All you can do is quote Paul? What the heck does that mean? I can quote Paul too. Anyone can quote Paul. Can you tell me what Paul meant by the quote you are posting? As far as I can tell by the quote, the Mosaic Covenant produced bondage because people are of flesh and they sin. “Do not speed” is not what puts one in bondage. “Do not speed” is GOOD because it keeps people from being KILLED. “If you speed, you will PAY” puts people in bondage/prison, because ALL speed and therefore ALL will be put in bondage/prision!

Paul does NOT speak of the entire Law. How could, “Do not covet” put one in bondage? It is GOOD! It is the consequences/payment of not obeying the Law that puts one in bondage/prison.

[LookingUp]

More from Paul:

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Right. “Kept under the law.” Again, let’s use the law of speeding as a comparison. If you are kept under the law and you speed, you will pay. This doesn’t mean the law regarding speeding is bad. Not speeding is GOOD. However, if you are under the jurisdiction of the law (kept under the Law) regarding speeding (i.e. in other words, the Law has authority to rule over you) and you do speed (which all have done), you will have to pay the consequences.

Before faith, Jews such as Paul were under the law.

Right. Before faith (i.e. in the work of Christ who paid the consequences of the Law), Jews who put their faith in the Law (or, actually, in themselves to perform the Law) to make them righteous were destined to fail because seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God (Rom. 10:3).

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

After we have been under the jurisdiction of the law and have learned that speeding is bad (i.e. it will kill people), does that mean that since this law has fully taught us that speeding is bad, we should start speeding again?

But Jews that received that faith are no longer under the law!

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Nice quote. There is neither male nor female: for all are one in Christ Jesus. Should a Jew stop being Jew any more than a male stop being male just because he is in Christ?

And here we have it. This is applied to all, whether Jew or not because all are one in Christ and thus all who receive the faith and have put on Christ should not be under the law any further, as Paul was no longer.

Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. I agree. Without Christ, if I do not speed, I am a “righteous” law abider. If the law regarding speeding does not have jurisdiction over me any longer, the fact whether I have sped or not does not make me righteous or not righteous. My righteousness is not found in the Law but in Christ through faith alone.

[rejoice44]

I still haven't figured out why some insist that a Jew must become a Gentile (i.e. forsake the Law of Moses) to be a believer in Jesus.

The Jewish disciples of Jesus were zealous for the Law. “And when they heard it they began glorifying God, and they said to him, ‘You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law’” (Acts 21:20). And we see that "zealous for the Law" includes not forsaking Moses, circumcision, and walking according to the customs (Acts 21:21).

The point of the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 was to clarify once and for all that Gentiles don’t have to become Jews (i.e. get circumcised) to be grafted into the Olive Tree and partake of Israel’s blessings. If a Gentile doesn’t have to become a Jew to be a believer in Jesus, why would a Jew have to become a Gentile to be a believer in Jesus?

What passages convince you that a Jewish disciple of Jesus should stop being "zealous for the Law"?

"For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us, having abolished in his flesh the enmity even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby, And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were near. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreighners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God:" Ephesians 2:14-19.

[Fenris]

If Jews can "remain Jewish" then it implies that there are alternative means of "salvation", which is decidedly un-Christian.

If Jews "must keep the law" even if they believe in Jesus, then it renders Jesus's sacrifice moot.

Or have I misunderstood Christian theology?

[rejoice44]

If Jews can "remain Jewish" then it implies that there are alternative means of "salvation", which is decidedly un-Christian.

If Jews "must keep the law" even if they believe in Jesus, then it renders Jesus's sacrifice moot.

Or have I misunderstood Christian theology?

Fenris what an insight. That is great that we agree.

[Fenris]

Fenris what an insight. That is great that we agree.

Well we can agree on what Christian theology is without necessarily talking about whether it's correct.

[rejoice44]

Well we can agree on what Christian theology is without necessarily talking about whether it's correct.

Understood. Your insight into what should be obvious for Christians is amazing.

[Fenris]

Understood. Your insight into what should be obvious for Christians is amazing.

Why, thank you.

[LookingUp]

"For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us, having abolished in his flesh the enmity even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby, And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were near. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreighners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God:" Ephesians 2:14-19.

Where does this say that a Jewish disciple of Jesus should stop being zealous for the Law?

Now let’s talk about the “enmity even the law of commandments contained in ordinances” that was slain.

Here we have another Scripture speaking of this enmity:
“When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross” (Col. 2:13-14).

So, here it is again, “certificate of debt” made up of decrees or ordinances that were “against us.” This debt is the enmity that was slain. This debt was canceled out, nailed to the cross.

What was this certificate of debt (i.e. something owed) that was against us (i.e. enmity)? Did the Jew think the good Law that said, “Do not covet” was against them? Was this a debt hanging over their heads? Did the Jew believe the good Law that said, “Do not commit adultery” needed to be slain or put to death because it was against them? Did the Jew think the good Law “Circumcise your son” was a debt that had to be paid? No, no, no. Of course not.

According to the ordinances contained in the Law, what developed between man and God as a result of not obeying (i.e. sinning) these Laws? Enmity. Hostility. Broken fellowship. It was never the good Law that kept man from God; it was breaking the good Law that kept man from God.

How did Jesus make peace between man and God? How did Jesus reconcile man to God? By taking away the good Law, “Do not covet”? No. Paul says, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law having become a curse for us” (Gal. 3:13). Surely, the good Law, “Do not commit adultery” is not a curse. But if you break that Law and do commit adultery, surely you will have a curse over you (i.e. certificate of debt hanging over you).

Christ did not slay the Law; Christ has slain sin and its ultimate result: death. And that “…that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives” (Heb. 2:14-15). “But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, ‘Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?’” (1 Cor. 15:54-55).

The Law didn’t need to be “taken out of the way” and put to death. The Law doesn’t keep anyone in bondage. Sin, taking an opportunity through the Law, keeps one in bondage:
“…for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So, then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Therefore did that which is good become the cause of death for me? MAY IT NEVER BE! Rather it was SIN, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin” (Rom. 7:11-14).

“For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity” (Acts 8:23).

“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ” (Rom. 8:1).

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death” (Rom. 8:2).

Again, James, Peter and the other Jewish disciples remained zealous for the Law including circumcising their children and following the customs.