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Thread: Luke 23:34, hmm?

  1. #1

    Luke 23:34, hmm?

    So, there is the famous line "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.", Which admittedly sound's like a pretty freaking transcendent thing for someone to say while basically being horribly tortured to death. I wonder about it though, why would Jesus say this? Did Jesus want God to actually forgive these people without them realizing the error of their ways and repenting? Did God forgive them, and why? What does that forgiveness mean, that is to say what was the effect of the forgiveness?

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    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    So, there is the famous line "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.", Which admittedly sound's like a pretty freaking transcendent thing for someone to say while basically being horribly tortured to death. I wonder about it though, why would Jesus say this? Did Jesus want God to actually forgive these people without them realizing the error of their ways and repenting? Did God forgive them, and why? What does that forgiveness mean, that is to say what was the effect of the forgiveness?
    Perhaps Jesus saw them as pawns, following the orders of others in ignorance of the truth of His identity. Also, it might be said that they were facilitating that which was necessary for Jesus to fulfill His purpose. Regardless, Jesus' forgiveness seems to be one of a general pardon and permittance and not a specific one. Kind of like: Father, do not immediately judge them for what they do, but rather allow them to do what they must in order to allow me to intercede on behalf of them and all humanity on the cross; and then see if perhaps they can find forgiveness through me.
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

  3. #3

    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Jesus was displaying His very profound compassion on those who were doing the work of Satan, yet unaware that they were also participating in God's very plan of redemption for the whole world. They had no idea what depth of sin they were committing. Jesus' compassion was open for all to see, and demonstrates His very instruction that we forgive those who trespass against us, to open the way for us also to be forgiven. If He can do that, how difficult can it possibly be in that light for us to do so ourselves?

    As He refused to retain their sin against them, He made the way clear for these ignorant people to be forgiven by God, should they come to realize just what grave sin they have committed.

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    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    So, there is the famous line "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.", Which admittedly sound's like a pretty freaking transcendent thing for someone to say while basically being horribly tortured to death. I wonder about it though, why would Jesus say this? Did Jesus want God to actually forgive these people without them realizing the error of their ways and repenting? Did God forgive them, and why? What does that forgiveness mean, that is to say what was the effect of the forgiveness?
    They did not know Who Jesus was. They did not know who they where killing. That did not remove the fact that they where doing evil. It's just that they did not know just how evil they where being. And as another poster said most of them where pawns.

    Yes many of them did repent later, on the day of penticost. A record of it is in the Bible.

    Acts 2
    22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:


    ‘ I foresaw the LORD always before my face,
    For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
    26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
    Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
    27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
    Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
    28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
    You will make me full of joy in Your presence.

    29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
    34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:


    ‘ The LORD said to my Lord,

    “ Sit at My right hand,
    35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’

    36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
    37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

    40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

    So they where convicted, believed and repented and are forgiven.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days

  5. #5

    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    so, as far as i can tell his forgiveness on the cross did nothing of any consequence?

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    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    so, as far as i can tell his forgiveness on the cross did nothing of any consequence?
    Certainly there was no consequence that the soldiers understood of the time. It really depends on how one believes the following:

    John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
    11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.


    If one believes Jesus, there is an allowance made by God for Jesus to fulfill His purpose. The following is a parable of Jesus that really fits this passage well with how I have offered to view it. I have bolded the word that is the same as forgive in Luke 23:34. Is there any consequence in the parable?

    Luke 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
    7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
    8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
    9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

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    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    So, there is the famous line "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.", Which admittedly sound's like a pretty freaking transcendent thing for someone to say while basically being horribly tortured to death. I wonder about it though, why would Jesus say this? Did Jesus want God to actually forgive these people without them realizing the error of their ways and repenting? Did God forgive them, and why? What does that forgiveness mean, that is to say what was the effect of the forgiveness?
    I think you have to look at His entire purpose in context. Jesus's goal was to mediate the forgiveness of man through His death because of man. It may be better to paraphrase that verse from "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing", to "Father, forgive them, for what they are".

  8. #8

    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by watchinginawe View Post
    Certainly there was no consequence that the soldiers understood of the time. It really depends on how one believes the following: John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. If one believes Jesus, there is an allowance made by God for Jesus to fulfill His purpose. The following is a parable of Jesus that really fits this passage well with how I have offered to view it. I have bolded the word that is the same as forgive in Luke 23:34. Is there any consequence in the parable? Luke 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
    hmmm, I see what you are saying here...in part you are talking about the other weird part of the whole crucifixion deal in that it was essentially an orchestrated suicide, I don't really want to get into that though. The part that interests me is this fig part, am I to understand that Jesus was simply asking that the offenders not be killed right then and there? I mean unless God was about to slay them all, the forgiveness didn't do anything because after Jesus died they could be forgiven just the same.However it doesn't make much sense that God was about to kill them and Jesus stayed God's hand, because God knew the deal...together they orchestrated the deal. Also, it is said that the punishment for sin is death, so, you forgive the one sin of murdering Jesus, what difference does it make, surely they had lied or lusted or some other picayune thing that earned them eternal hell/death, so they were dead men anyway with or without the forgiveness...God could have killed them or anyone at any point for anything.....or for nothing actually.... and he has many times. So what would be the point of killing a bunch of people that are doing exactly what you wanted them to do? I should say, none. What's the point of forgiving a sin, without the free and willing choice God seems to be so concerned with if there are just a bunch of other sins sitting there that all deserve the same consequence? Why not just hop off the cross and forgive all sins without it being requested, or at the very least all sins that people aren't aware of, or don't believe are sins? Honestly, it looks like a rhetorical gesture, you know? I mean is there anything wrong with it being there just to illustrate how swell Jesus is? is that below God to do something like that?

  9. #9

    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by EF Hutton View Post
    I think you have to look at His entire purpose in context. Jesus's goal was to mediate the forgiveness of man through His death because of man. It may be better to paraphrase that verse from "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing", to "Father, forgive them, for what they are".
    and, what does that change exactly... seems a bit worse honestly. Forgive those things you created, for being those things you created. Anyway, what did that forgiveness do exactly, what was the effect?

  10. #10

    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Desperaux View Post
    Jesus was displaying His very profound compassion on those who were doing the work of Satan, yet unaware that they were also participating in God's very plan of redemption for the whole world. They had no idea what depth of sin they were committing. Jesus' compassion was open for all to see, and demonstrates His very instruction that we forgive those who trespass against us, to open the way for us also to be forgiven. If He can do that, how difficult can it possibly be in that light for us to do so ourselves? As He refused to retain their sin against them, He made the way clear for these ignorant people to be forgiven by God, should they come to realize just what grave sin they have committed.
    so, it was hand waving, with no actual effect other than to display how nice Jesus was about the whole thing?

  11. #11

    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adstars View Post
    They did not know Who Jesus was. They did not know who they where killing. That did not remove the fact that they where doing evil. It's just that they did not know just how evil they where being. And as another poster said most of them where pawns. Yes many of them did repent later, on the day of penticost. A record of it is in the Bible. Acts 2 22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him: ‘ I foresaw the LORD always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence. 29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: ‘ The LORD said to my Lord, “ Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’ 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. So they where convicted, believed and repented and are forgiven. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
    okay, so what about the ones that didn't repent, what effect did it have? Did those guys go to hell for every sin except that one?

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    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    hmmm, I see what you are saying here...in part you are talking about the other weird part of the whole crucifixion deal in that it was essentially an orchestrated suicide, I don't really want to get into that though. The part that interests me is this fig part, am I to understand that Jesus was simply asking that the offenders not be killed right then and there?
    Yeah, that would be good enough. But Jesus was also expressing His consent as well. For example, the very next verses have this:

    Luke 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
    36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,
    37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.


    Now that Jesus didn't take Himself off the cross or smite all those against Him doesn't say (to the Christian) that He didn't possess the power or the right of appeal to the Father to have done that. Here is a little longer passage where Jesus talks of this:

    Matthew 26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.
    48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
    49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
    50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.
    51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
    52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
    53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
    54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling
    I mean unless God was about to slay them all, the forgiveness didn't do anything because after Jesus died they could be forgiven just the same.
    Your original questions were: "Did Jesus want God to actually forgive these people without them realizing the error of their ways and repenting? Did God forgive them, and why? What does that forgiveness mean, that is to say what was the effect of the forgiveness?"

    I don't believe Jesus ministered salvation to them in His request to the Father. We know that Jesus had the power to forgive in salvation Himself and did not need to petition the Father regarding that. We see this just a few verses later when Jesus ministers salvation to the repentent thief (Luke 23:39-43). So Jesus' statement was a request and an expression of agreement between the Father and the Son. Allow them their part without summary judgment, without hardening their hearts to knowing the truth at some future time where they might realize the error of their ways and find repentance and salvation through the work that I am performing in my death and resurrection.

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling
    However it doesn't make much sense that God was about to kill them and Jesus stayed God's hand, because God knew the deal...together they orchestrated the deal.
    There is tension presented in the Gospels concerning this. For example, Jesus prays three times about the necessity:

    Matthew 26:37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
    38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
    39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
    40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
    41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
    42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
    43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.
    44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.


    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling
    Also, it is said that the punishment for sin is death, so, you forgive the one sin of murdering Jesus, what difference does it make, surely they had lied or lusted or some other picayune thing that earned them eternal hell/death, so they were dead men anyway with or without the forgiveness...
    Exactly. However, it is that the consequence of sin is death, not the punishment. They were already in jeopardy of the judgment without the further offense, and also they were ignorant of these offenses. As you offered, they had not realized the error of their ways and repented. Their condition had more to do then with just their present actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling
    What's the point of forgiving a sin, without the free and willing choice God seems to be so concerned with if there are just a bunch of other sins sitting there that all deserve the same consequence?
    I think you should understand by now that the saying wasn't about extending saving grace to the soldiers separate from that which Jesus was accomplishing at the cross; at least from my viewpoint. Jesus wasn't saving them in His request.

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling
    Why not just hop off the cross and forgive all sins without it being requested, or at the very least all sins that people aren't aware of, or don't believe are sins? Honestly, it looks like a rhetorical gesture, you know? I mean is there anything wrong with it being there just to illustrate how swell Jesus is? is that below God to do something like that?
    I think it is fine to look at it as a rhetorical gesture that finds its meaning in the agreement between Jesus Christ and the Father and the necessity of the cross. I think you are right on top of the proper way to view what Jesus was saying.
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

  13. #13

    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    okay, so what about the ones that didn't repent, what effect did it have? Did those guys go to hell for every sin except that one?
    No one goes to hell for particular sins. They go to hell because they have rejected Jesus Christ.

  14. #14

    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    so, it was hand waving, with no actual effect other than to display how nice Jesus was about the whole thing?
    That may be your conclusion, but it was not anything close to mine. While forgiveness for all was achieved on the cross, God isn't about to receive anyone without each person having been cleansed by the blood applied personally in repentance for sin.

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    Re: Luke 23:34, hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    and, what does that change exactly... seems a bit worse honestly. Forgive those things you created, for being those things you created. Anyway, what did that forgiveness do exactly, what was the effect?
    "Forgive those things you created, for being those things you created".

    Your thinking here, to make that statement, is overly perplexed in the mechanics itself for what occurred when life unraveled that day. No doubt it's worthy of asking, but the answer is unattainable (at least the one I think you are looking for). The point of time ordained by God for the world to be redeemed from death was not at the beginning of the world, nor the end of the world, but in the middle of the world. It also had to be done by an "Earthling" to be justifiable to the creation itself. God transcends time with Christ to perpetuate the series of events necessary to mark this change and it is fully consummated on the cross. On that day, it may have seemed like mundane gestures with no meaning, that could cause any effectual change, but that's because it's instance of occurrence is to satisfy God not man. Our purpose is to accept and receive the gift given by our creator, not to compete for the understanding. When we do, we undermine the indicative simplicity of it all and our own interpretation for justice, grace and authority returns to us every time. It is God's authority and because it is His-story that events transpire the way they do with (sometimes) no apparent regard for our own reasoning. We have to put him on the pedestal as the meaning for it all, and remove ourselves, before anything about Him is understandable.
    Last edited by EF Hutton; Nov 8th 2011 at 07:11 PM.

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