Luke 23:34, hmm?

[oscarkipling]

Yeah, that would be good enough. But Jesus was also expressing His consent as well. For example, the very next verses have this: Luke 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. 36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, 37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself. Now that Jesus didn't take Himself off the cross or smite all those against Him doesn't say (to the Christian) that He didn't possess the power or the right of appeal to the Father to have done that. Here is a little longer passage where Jesus talks of this: Matthew 26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people. 48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast. 49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. 50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him. 51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? Your original questions were: "Did Jesus want God to actually forgive these people without them realizing the error of their ways and repenting? Did God forgive them, and why? What does that forgiveness mean, that is to say what was the effect of the forgiveness?" I don't believe Jesus ministered salvation to them in His request to the Father. We know that Jesus had the power to forgive in salvation Himself and did not need to petition the Father regarding that. We see this just a few verses later when Jesus ministers salvation to the repentent thief (Luke 23:39-43). So Jesus' statement was a request and an expression of agreement between the Father and the Son. Allow them their part without summary judgment, without hardening their hearts to knowing the truth at some future time where they might realize the error of their ways and find repentance and salvation through the work that I am performing in my death and resurrection. There is tension presented in the Gospels concerning this. For example, Jesus prays three times about the necessity: Matthew 26:37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. 40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. 42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. 43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. 44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. Exactly. However, it is that the consequence of sin is death, not the punishment. They were already in jeopardy of the judgment without the further offense, and also they were ignorant of these offenses. As you offered, they had not realized the error of their ways and repented. Their condition had more to do then with just their present actions. I think you should understand by now that the saying wasn't about extending saving grace to the soldiers separate from that which Jesus was accomplishing at the cross; at least from my viewpoint. Jesus wasn't saving them in His request. I think it is fine to look at it as a rhetorical gesture that finds its meaning in the agreement between Jesus Christ and the Father and the necessity of the cross. I think you are right on top of the proper way to view what Jesus was saying.

well, looks like we are looking at this in pretty much the same way at this point, so i thank you very much for your replies, you've been very helpful.

[oscarkipling]

That may be your conclusion, but it was not anything close to mine. While forgiveness for all was achieved on the cross, God isn't about to receive anyone without each person having been cleansed by the blood applied personally in repentance for sin.

I suppose i didn't, and don't understand you then., but thanks for the replies.

[oscarkipling]

"Forgive those things you created, for being those things you created". You're thinking here, to make that statement, is overly perplexed in the mechanics itself for what occurred when life unraveled that day. No doubt it's worthy of asking, but the answer is unattainable (at least the one I think you are looking for). The point of time ordained by God for the world to be redeemed from death was not at the beginning of the world, nor the end of the world, but in the middle of the world. It also had to be done by an "Earthling" to be justifiable to the creation itself. God transcends time with Christ to perpetuate the series of events necessary to mark this change and it is fully consummated on the cross. On that day, it may have seemed like mundane gestures with no meaning, that could cause any effectual change, but that's because it's instance of occurrence is to satisfy God not man. Our purpose is to accept and receive the gift given by our creator, not to compete for the understanding. When we do, we undermine the indicative simplicity of it all and our own interpretation for justice, grace and authority returns to us every time. It is God's authority and because it is His-story that events transpire the way they do with (sometimes) no apparent regard for our own reasoning. We have to put him on the pedestal as the meaning for it all, and remove ourselves, before anything about Him is understandable.

well, I gotta tell you, nothing burns me up more than these types of answers, i dont blame you though, thanks for taking the time to reply.

[EF Hutton]

well, I gotta tell you, nothing burns me up more than these types of answers, i dont blame you though, thanks for taking the time to reply.

I merely play the music. I don't write it. It always boils down to authority in questions of this nature. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.

[Desperaux]

well, I gotta tell you, nothing burns me up more than these types of answers, i dont blame you though, thanks for taking the time to reply.

It appears that you already have it all figured out, so why ask? To sit in judgment of the responses you do get?

Nothing burns me more than threads created with a query, when the author already has an underlying opinion that counters what he knows he will get.

[oscarkipling]

It appears that you already have it all figured out, so why ask? To sit in judgment of the responses you do get? Nothing burns me more than threads created with a query, when the author already has an underlying opinion that counters what he knows he will get.

well, as with most threads I thought about this before I bothered to create the thread, so yeah i came in with thoughts, that seems like a reasonable thing to do. I feel like watchinginawe helped me think it through, and the things he said sound reasonable to me. I now feel like i have an idea that is much more refined idea than i had when i started the thread. I guess its not apparent that as i was saying things, it was also me thinking about them. I really don't know how I could have approached it more honestly. Is it so bad that i find it irritating when i ask a question and someone tells me that i need to believe something that makes no sense to me on faith before it makes sense to me? if one of my professors told me that i'd be just as irritated, heck probably even more....wouldn't you? Anyway you aren't the first person to believe i just come here to pick fights where i just go through the motions (because if i know what you all will say that's all i could possibly be doing), and you probably wont be the last. i'm sorry you feel that way, but i'm not going to stop asking my questions because you think I'm insincere, so...my name is always listed as the thread creator, you could just avoid them as many people do.... its funny when I began coming here everyone was so friendly, but after a while, it became much less freindly. Its as if, people here think that any honest person would have been converted by now, well that or they would have stopped coming...so obviously i'm a dishonest person because its impossible to be unconvinced and still genuinely interested.

[Dani H]

Forgiveness doesn't just extend to the action, but also to the consquences. On the cross, Jesus wasn't just requesting the Father's forgiveness for the mob crucifying Him but also for an absorption of the consequences into His death on the cross.

Full forgiveness absorbs the consequences of someone's action into itself without holding them against that person, ever again.

It had to happen, all was going according to plan, and really, these people had no idea of the full implications of what was happening there on that cross that day.

Jesus came so SAVE and not to CONDEMN or PUNISH. So ... He was finishing what He came to do, and saying things consistent with what He was doing.

[Bandit]

So, there is the famous line "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.", Which admittedly sound's like a pretty freaking transcendent thing for someone to say while basically being horribly tortured to death. I wonder about it though, why would Jesus say this? Did Jesus want God to actually forgive these people without them realizing the error of their ways and repenting? Did God forgive them, and why? What does that forgiveness mean, that is to say what was the effect of the forgiveness?

so, as far as i can tell his forgiveness on the cross did nothing of any consequence?

Hello oscarkipling,

I think the request for forgiveness (for that one act) was real, as was the granting of forgiveness (for that one act). What this did was to give these persons a renewed opportunity to repent. If Jesus had held this sin against them, then there would be no future opportunity for them to repent. Jesus was giving them another opportunity to repent. He did not want to close the door on them at this point.

[oscarkipling]

Hello oscarkipling,

I think the request for forgiveness (for that one act) was real, as was the granting of forgiveness (for that one act). What this did was to give these persons a renewed opportunity to repent. If Jesus had held this sin against them, then there would be no future opportunity for them to repent. Jesus was giving them another opportunity to repent. He did not want to close the door on them at this point.

I don't understand why he needed to forgive them on the cross in order for them to repent later and be forgiven. If a person sins right now, and then a year from now they repent and ask forgiveness and accept Jesus and all that, they will be forgiven correct? It doesn't seem necessary for Jesus to forgive that sin at the time it happens in order to to forgive it at the time of repentance. Even if Jesus had "held it against them" does this really preclude Jesus from forgiving them if and when they repent?

[oscarkipling]

Forgiveness doesn't just extend to the action, but also to the consquences. On the cross, Jesus wasn't just requesting the Father's forgiveness for the mob crucifying Him but also for an absorption of the consequences into His death on the cross.

Full forgiveness absorbs the consequences of someone's action into itself without holding them against that person, ever again.

It had to happen, all was going according to plan, and really, these people had no idea of the full implications of what was happening there on that cross that day.

Jesus came so SAVE and not to CONDEMN or PUNISH. So ... He was finishing what He came to do, and saying things consistent with what He was doing.

Okay, I think what you are describing here is very much my idea of what God's forgiveness would mean in this context...what i don't understand is why Jesus forgave these people without them needing to repent or even realize what they were doing is wrong. It seems that for every other sin it is required that the human recognize their error, ask for forgiveness and sincerely try/intend not to repeat the offense. Is it true today that if i don't really believe or understand or fully grasp the implications or existence of sins that I'm forgiven automatically like these people? Can anyone honestly say that they understand the full implications of anything in regards to God? Idk, watching said that it makes some sense to think of it as rhetoric, and I can get behind that to a degree because as a symbolic gesture, its pretty effective. It illustrates a point about Jesus' character and purpose but as actual forgiveness as you have defined it here it seems pretty contrary to the way God's forgiveness normally works.

[Desperaux]

Hello oscarkipling,

I think the request for forgiveness (for that one act) was real, as was the granting of forgiveness (for that one act). What this did was to give these persons a renewed opportunity to repent. If Jesus had held this sin against them, then there would be no future opportunity for them to repent. Jesus was giving them another opportunity to repent. He did not want to close the door on them at this point.

This is correct, and needs to be considered by our OP.

[Adstars]

so, as far as i can tell his forgiveness on the cross did nothing of any consequence?

He asked for them to be forgiven while He was on the cross and many of them where through the conviction of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. It is always God that moves people with conviction.

So Jesus asked for them to be forgiven and God proceeded to move them through the conviction of the Holy Spirit to embrace the love of His truth so that they where justifiably forgiven through the Atoning blood of the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstars]

okay, so what about the ones that didn't repent, what effect did it have? Did those guys go to hell for every sin except that one?

Well did any of the men who Jesus was referring too not repent? Was Jesus talking about just the men who where carrying out the execution? The Pawns or was Jesus talking about the leaders? We don't know. I would say that all those who Jesus was referring to did come to believe in the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus and as such where forgiven ALL their sins.



All Praise The Ancient of Days

[Neanias]

I think it constitues a heart of love...

And love hopes all things. As men, which Jesus was (yes, also God), we judge no thing before it's time, but hope that indeed man may be turned from this way.

Consider then the story of Stephen. Stephen saying exactly the same thing would be quite appropriate: Paul was of those who stoned him!

Thus, love hopes all things, and gives itself for the sake of others.

[oscarkipling]

Well did any of the men who Jesus was referring too not repent? Was Jesus talking about just the men who where carrying out the execution? The Pawns or was Jesus talking about the leaders? We don't know. I would say that all those who Jesus was referring to did come to believe in the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus and as such where forgiven ALL their sins.



All Praise The Ancient of Days

people keep saying this or something like it.. if they asked for forgiveness and repented then Jesus would forgive them anyway. Why is there a special request to forgive them if they were only forgiven after doing what everyone else that God forgives has to do...that is come to Jesus repent and ask for forgiveness. If they were not forgiven until after they saw the light as it were, what did he forgiveness on the cross do really?....also what is the reason that you believe everyone Jesus was referring to eventually repented?