Luke 23:34, hmm?

[Sojourner55]

pearls!!! they'll go great with my new lipstick and silk purse....thank you for this illuminating post.

The "pearls" alluded to something Jesus said regarding the futility of presenting spiritual truths to those who see no value in them. I thought it was as phrase as commonly known to unbelievers as John 3:16. Guess I was wrong. BTW, if you are seeking illumination--and not just amusing yourself--why do you stand ready to throw a wet blanket over every candle being lit for you? Your question has been answered in a clear and articulate manner several times. I'm not sure if you can't see it, or simply refuse to.

[Desperaux]

I mean you have to realize this is just a very fancy way of calling me dishonest or insincere....honestly although it probably shouldn't, it really hurts my feelings every-time.

No insult is intended.

i feel like i keep asking the same question,...Jesus doesn't retain any sins against anyone as long as they ask for forgiveness, repent and accept him as their personal savior right? It appears you are saying that this requirement didn't change for these particular sinners, so at best the forgiveness from the cross was more like "if you do what I require of you to attain my forgiveness, I will forgive even you"...which honestly is pretty big of him still, but its not precisely forgiveness from the cross.

If Jesus had retained their sin, then God would not be free to forgive them. He doesn't work against Himself. Jesus was demonstrating deep compassion for poor, spiritually dead people who do not know what grievous sin they are committing.

[oscarkipling]

What forgiveness does, is provide the opportunity for reconciliation.

Say you sin against me. Maybe you don't even want a relationship with me right at that point. Or maybe you want something else more, and enough to hurt our relationship. Or maybe you're just ignorant. Whatever the case is. Ignorance ... purposefulness ... forgiveness, if real and complete, takes them both into account and deals with both, completely.

Regardless ... I choose forgive you, so that as far as I'm concerned I've dealt with the sinful action and its consequences, and the door is now open for you to reconcile with me. The forgiveness on my end is real and complete.

The cycle becomes complete once you come to me and allow reconciliation to happen on your end also. By acknowledging that you hurt our relationship and by allowing my forgiveness to heal that hurt, by receiving it and letting that remove whatever guilt or shame there is on your end now that you've realized what you did and how that has affected your relationship with me. The relationship can then continue unhindered, as if nothing has happened. Because forgiveness, when understood and enacted properly, is immensely powerful. So powerful, in fact, that once it's been allowed to do what it does, the original offense is a non-issue. That's how God can say "I don't even remember your sin anymore". And how the Bible can say that He removes our sin from us as far as the east is from the west (which is infinity). He no longer takes it into account. It's like it never happened, as far as the relationship aspect is concerned.

Relationships are always two-sided, see? God took care of His end of the deal, and the door is now open to us to step into that and receive it and build a real relationship with Him, should we so desire. That's how Saul, the persecutor, can come to Jesus, receive forgiveness, be permitted reconciliation with Him, and become Paul the apostle. Paul may say "Jesus came to forgive sinners of which I am chief" but his relationship with the Lord is now free from that sin, and there's nothing in the way between the two to hinder them from living happily ever after. Did Paul still have to deal with suspicion from other believers and did it take some years for him to establish himself and prove himself? Yes. But that was between Paul and those people, and not between Paul and Jesus. So other consequences still happened but Paul was able to come to Jesus, every day, unhindered, and allow himself to be transformed into a new person by the power of Christ's Spirit.

That's about as basic as I can make it. Let me know if you need further explanation.

Of course the relationship between two people is a lot different than a relationship between God and a person. Because God brings His own Person to the table, and with that His power and abilities. I don't have His kind of power, of course, and I'm not God. So any parallels drawn there are going to be limited, evidently.

Far as God is concerned, you're forgiven. Jesus isn't going to die again. What He did, He did once, for all, for everyone. God's forgiveness has always worked the same way, because from the beginning, God has ALWAYS been interested in reconciliation with His wayward creatures and has provided opportunity for that to happen, time and again.

But to step into that, again, you have to individually accept your part of the deal. There's a plate at the table for you. But you'd have to come to the table and start eating, for it to be a reality in your life. Again, a limited metaphor, but there you have it.

Remember Jesus came to undo everything that Adam's original behavior caused. The greatest part of that is to restore us to a relationship with God, the same relationship Adam and Eve had, free and unhindered. If you view it from where God sits and what His intentions were, then it'll probably make more sense than viewing it from a human level. Because all of this was initiated by God, for His own purpose.

actually yeah, when you put it like that it makes a whole lot more sense. I think what confuses me is that I've always thought that we were supposed to ask for forgiveness. From what you say, it seems we are forgiven already... coincidentally this addresses an issue I had in a thread a while ago about what Jesus' death actually did. I mean it sounds good to me, but are people just mis-speaking when they say you must ask for Jesus' forgiveness?


blarrgh... okay to be clear, you do mean that Jesus was talking about everyone in the world ever when he said "forgive them father for they know not what they do?"

[oscarkipling]

The "pearls" alluded to something Jesus said regarding the futility of presenting spiritual truths to those who see no value in them. I thought it was as phrase as commonly known to unbelievers as John 3:16. Guess I was wrong. BTW, if you are seeking illumination--and not just amusing yourself--why do you stand ready to throw a wet blanket over every candle being lit for you? Your question has been answered in a clear and articulate manner several times. I'm not sure if you can't see it, or simply refuse to.

haha, yeah, I am familiar with the quote, are you not familiar with lipstick on a pig and silk purse from a sows ear? anyway it was a stupid joke I guess. As far as my wet blanketry...well if it doesn't add up for me i say so, i think I've been clear about the problems I see and why i believe they are problems...its not like i just said "nope ..lalalalal". People have expressed their view clearly and articulately several times, but a clear answer is different than an unassailable answer....and frankly different from an answer to the question I intended to ask...which I think has been the main issue. Anyway, you call it a wet blanket, I call it being persistent and thorough until I'm satisfied...i do realize how annoying it is, but...well its how I learn.

[oscarkipling]

No insult is intended.




If Jesus had retained their sin, then God would not be free to forgive them. He doesn't work against Himself. Jesus was demonstrating deep compassion for poor, spiritually dead people who do not know what grievous sin they are committing.

but....but... i'm saying , Is it true that Jesus forgives everyone anyway? Does Jesus ever hold a sin against anyone? ....that is does Jesus ever hold a sin against anyone that repents asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus etc..?

[Desperaux]

but....but... i'm saying , Is it true that Jesus forgives everyone anyway? Does Jesus ever hold a sin against anyone? ....that is does Jesus ever hold a sin against anyone that repents asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus etc..?

What is true is that forgiveness has been achieved for everyone----it is like a river, and all we need to do is jump in. Jesus doesn't hold particular sins against anyone, but He does deny intimate relationship of any who have rejected His free gift of salvation, and His marvelous forgiveness that comes with it. People are condemned by their lack of righteous standing with Him, not for a list of sins they have or have not committed.

[oscarkipling]

What is true is that forgiveness has been achieved for everyone----it is like a river, and all we need to do is jump in. Jesus doesn't hold particular sins against anyone, but He does deny intimate relationship of any who have rejected His free gift of salvation, and His marvelous forgiveness that comes with it. People are condemned by their lack of righteous standing with Him, not for a list of sins they have or have not committed.

okay right, so if Jesus doesn't hold sins against anyone, and everyone is forgiven anyway...then he was free to forgive them without making any special pronouncements from the cross right?

[Sojourner55]

haha, yeah, I am familiar with the quote, are you not familiar with lipstick on a pig and silk purse from a sows ear? anyway it was a stupid joke I guess. As far as my wet blanketry...well if it doesn't add up for me i say so, i think I've been clear about the problems I see and why i believe they are problems...its not like i just said "nope ..lalalalal". People have expressed their view clearly and articulately several times, but a clear answer is different than an unassailable answer....and frankly different from an answer to the question I intended to ask...which I think has been the main issue. Anyway, you call it a wet blanket, I call it being persistent and thorough until I'm satisfied...i do realize how annoying it is, but...well its how I learn.

"There are none so blind as they who will not see." Dude, you are demanding to be shown something, yet you have your spiritual eyes shut as tightly as you can, so you're not going to be able to see anything until you yourself choose to open them.

With regard to your question, and the answers you're rejecting, I'll try one time to clarify for you, and then I'm back to discussions on other parts of the board. The disconnect I see here, seems to be predicated on:
1. Your failure to differentiate between what Jesus said from the cross, and the forgiveness made available by His sacrifice:
When Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do," He was--as several people have already explained to you--interceding on behalf of the Jews, because He knew, in their spiritual blindness, that they did not know He was the one God had sent to them. (God may very well struck down those around the cross--who knows). Jesus Himself, referring to His impending death, said that it was the very reason He was sent (John 12:27). There could be no forgiveness for the sin of mankind until that substitutionary death took place, and that is the forgiveness we speak of today--different from what Jesus said about the Jews from the cross.

2. your inability to grasp the concept that forgiveness is conditional upon acceptance.
You're a no-good, mangy murderer, sitting on death row. You've been tried and convicted, and are now awaiting execution. Would you do things differently if you could start over? Maybe. But, no use worrying about that now. You're guilty, and you know it. In a few days, they're gonna strap you into the Big Chair, and watch you "ride the lightnin.'"

But then, suddenly, the Governor decides to pardon you. Yes, believe it or not--for whatever reason, you're gonna walk out that prison a free man. All you have to do is accept the pardon. But for some reason, you refuse. I don't know why anyone would do such a crazy thing, but you turn down the offer. You look at the paper, but just crumple it, and toss it back. The Warden and the Governor are both bewildered, but they can't force you to accept the pardon--it's your choice.

That's where you are man. You're guilty as charged, and on your way to hell. But God has decided to grant a pardon to you, because Jesus died in your place. Because He's flesh and blood, he was able to die; but because He's God on the inside, He didn't stay dead. He walked right out of the gates of hell--taking the power of death and hell with Him; and He's sitting in heaven, just waiting to come back to claim those who belong to Him--and unfortunately, to send those who refused the pardon, off to the only alternative thereis to being in God's presence: the lake of fire. Whose fault is it if you end up there because you refused the way out when it was offered to you?

That's the best way I can explain it. Really think about it before you post anything else. Please don't make us feel all our heartfelt words are worthless to you. This is a Christian board with lots of people who love helping others see the truth of what God has done for us, and that includes you. This isn't a game. If you don't get anything else out of this, remember this: The forgiveness is there, being held out to you because of what happened on that cross 2000 years ago--and what happened afterward. But you don't have that forgiveness until you actually reach out and accept it.

[Desperaux]

okay right, so if Jesus doesn't hold sins against anyone, and everyone is forgiven anyway...then he was free to forgive them without making any special pronouncements from the cross right?

Jesus is free, period, and it is by His blood that we are also. Jesus' great compassion and mercy was not hidden by His extreme torment, which no one---NO ONE could ever undergo and still think of others, and desiring their eternal well-being---and that should bring an end to your unbelief and questioning.

[oscarkipling]

"There are none so blind as they who will not see." Dude, you are demanding to be shown something, yet you have your spiritual eyes shut as tightly as you can, so you're not going to be able to see anything until you yourself choose to open them.

Which one of my demands are you talking about here?

With regard to your question, and the answers you're rejecting, I'll try one time to clarify for you, and then I'm back to discussions on other parts of the board. The disconnect I see here, seems to be predicated on:
1. Your failure to differentiate between what Jesus said from the cross, and the forgiveness made available by His sacrifice:
When Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do," He was--as several people have already explained to you--interceding on behalf of the Jews, because He knew, in their spiritual blindness, that they did not know He was the one God had sent to them. (God may very well struck down those around the cross--who knows). Jesus Himself, referring to His impending death, said that it was the very reason He was sent (John 12:27). There could be no forgiveness for the sin of mankind until that substitutionary death took place, and that is the forgiveness we speak of today--different from what Jesus said about the Jews from the cross.

Hmm, idk, I thought I had spoken to this, but i might not have....It seems to me that the Jews were eligible for forgiveness just like everyone else after Jesus dies so I don't see the need to make a separate and distinct forgiveness call. If this was a special forgiveness for spiritual blindness as you suggest, then does everyone get a pass for spiritual blindness that doesn't require repentance and acceptance? why not? If the forgiveness on the cross also requires acceptance, then in what way is it different than the general forgiveness of God, other than Jesus said it from the cross? I understand that people have said that they are distinct, but I still don't understand why. If god was going to strike them down before Jesus died and rose again, then that is a solid reason why it needed to be done..otherwise its a moot distinction....maybe i should say it this way:

on the one hand we have

1.All of Jesus' forgiveness is contingent upon acceptance
2.When Jesus died all people were or have access to forgiveness.
4.All Jews are people.
5.Therefore the Jews didn't need special forgiveness

on the other

1.All of Jesus' forgiveness is contingent upon acceptance
2.Jesus forgave the Jews
3.When Jesus died all people were or have access to forgiveness.
4.???.
5. Profit!

even better I have a pardoning example. On Monday the governer pardons all of the child rapists. He makes a breif speech "I hereby pardon all child rapists because even though they are the worst of the worst, they are only human", then on tuesday he pardons all the other prisoners. The conditions of the pardons are all exactly the same, there are no apparent logistical reasons not to just pardon them all on Monday,but he didn't....why?

2. your inability to grasp the concept that forgiveness is conditional upon acceptance.
You're a no-good, mangy murderer, sitting on death row. You've been tried and convicted, and are now awaiting execution. Would you do things differently if you could start over? Maybe. But, no use worrying about that now. You're guilty, and you know it. In a few days, they're gonna strap you into the Big Chair, and watch you "ride the lightnin.'"

But then, suddenly, the Governor decides to pardon you. Yes, believe it or not--for whatever reason, you're gonna walk out that prison a free man. All you have to do is accept the pardon. But for some reason, you refuse. I don't know why anyone would do such a crazy thing, but you turn down the offer. You look at the paper, but just crumple it, and toss it back. The Warden and the Governor are both bewildered, but they can't force you to accept the pardon--it's your choice.

That's where you are man. You're guilty as charged, and on your way to hell. But God has decided to grant a pardon to you, because Jesus died in your place. Because He's flesh and blood, he was able to die; but because He's God on the inside, He didn't stay dead. He walked right out of the gates of hell--taking the power of death and hell with Him; and He's sitting in heaven, just waiting to come back to claim those who belong to Him--and unfortunately, to send those who refused the pardon, off to the only alternative thereis to being in God's presence: the lake of fire. Whose fault is it if you end up there because you refused the way out when it was offered to you?

That's the best way I can explain it. Really think about it before you post anything else. Please don't make us feel all our heartfelt words are worthless to you. This is a Christian board with lots of people who love helping others see the truth of what God has done for us, and that includes you. This isn't a game. If you don't get anything else out of this, remember this: The forgiveness is there, being held out to you because of what happened on that cross 2000 years ago--and what happened afterward. But you don't have that forgiveness until you actually reach out and accept it.

I don't have a problem understanding that...its just that if all forgiveness is contingent upon acceptance, even the forgiveness from the cross, then there was no special need to forgive anyone from the cross...I mean not unless they were going to die before Jesus died. That is because after Jesus died, everyone either were immediately forgive, or could be forgiven if they asked for it. What I'm talking about here is the redundancy.

[oscarkipling]

Jesus is free, period, and it is by His blood that we are also. Jesus' great compassion and mercy was not hidden by His extreme torment, which no one---NO ONE could ever undergo and still think of others, and desiring their eternal well-being---and that should bring an end to your unbelief and questioning.

So, because Jesus did something amazing, singular and one of a kind, something beyond what any mortal man would ever do, showed boundless love compassion and grace.... I should stop wondering why he forgave a group of people, then forgave all people a few days later?

[Sojourner55]

Not surprisingly you're not receiving what I'm transmitting--although I may have helped scramble the signal a bit by not properly conveying what I intended to say. What I did NOT say, however, was that God provides any special type of forgiveness for the Jews, or anyone else. If you cannot understand that receiving a gift is contingent on acceptance of the gift, it's because you don't want to. Sorry I wasted your time so fruitlessly. It won't happen again.

[oscarkipling]

Not surprisingly you're not receiving what I'm transmitting--although I may have helped scramble the signal a bit by not properly conveying what I intended to say. What I did NOT say, however, was that God provides any special type of forgiveness for the Jews, or anyone else. If you cannot understand that receiving a gift is contingent on acceptance of the gift, it's because you don't want to. Sorry I wasted your time so fruitlessly. It won't happen again.

Okay, hows this. I Oscar Kipling do fully understand and accept that forgiveness is contingent upon acceptance in all cases all of the time. From here on out this will be treated as incontrovertible fact. Now, the fact that forgiveness is contingent on acceptance, does not explain why Jesus forgave the Jews specifically from the cross...because the Jews along with everyone else in the world would be able to accept Jesus' gift of forgiveness for all sins after Jesus was sacrificed on the cross....right?

Or at least that's my question, why did Jesus intercede on behalf of the Jews as you say, when he was literally about to die as a payment for every sin presumably including the sin of "knowing not what they do". The question is why would Jesus do something twice that he only needed to do once? Some here seem to suggest that Jesus did it in order to give them an opportunity for reconciliation that they wouldn't otherwise have. This would make sense to me if those people were not going to survive until Jesus died, or if the sin that they committed needed special forgiveness and was not included in Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It seems that some here are saying that what Christ was really talking about was all mankind, and this was merely a sort of commentary on what was happening via his sacrifice...I suppose that's fine, it has certainly grown on me since I initially heard it. Now with watchinginawe and Bandit it seems that the effect was rhetorical, symbolic, there to show people that Jesus was capable of forgiving people even while nailed to a cross and tortured. This way he makes clear his character by doing something that isn't precisely necessary but is super beneficial...and I agree with that, that answer makes the most sense to me. He didn't need to forgive them from the cross in order for them to partake in forgiveness of Christ that was extended to all mankind, but its a very powerful image that has undoubtedly brought many to Christianity. Its not what I'd call dishonest, but it is a bit of showmanship.

[Adstars]

people keep saying this or something like it.. if they asked for forgiveness and repented then Jesus would forgive them anyway. Why is there a special request to forgive them if they were only forgiven after doing what everyone else that God forgives has to do...that is come to Jesus repent and ask for forgiveness. If they were not forgiven until after they saw the light as it were, what did he forgiveness on the cross do really?.

He did not forgive them on the cross. He expressed His desire for them to be forgiven. See the differance? So after they where moved by the Holy Spirit to embrace the Love of the truth to be forgiven.

...also what is the reason that you believe everyone Jesus was referring to eventually repented?

Because The will of Jesus would have been forfilled. He is one with God. So their will is One.



All Praise The Ancient of Days

[Adstars]

Quote Originally Posted by Adstars View Post
He asked for them to be forgiven while He was on the cross and many of them where through the conviction of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. It is always God that moves people with conviction.

So Jesus asked for them to be forgiven and God proceeded to move them through the conviction of the Holy Spirit to embrace the love of His truth so that they where justifiably forgiven through the Atoning blood of the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

god "moved them" sounds alot like a clever way of saying they were forced without saying they were forced.

No. God is a very powerful convincer when He wants to move someone. Jesus who knew their thoughts had mercy upon them because He knew they did not know just how evil their act was. He showed the same policy towards Saul when He knocked him off his horse on the way to Damascus. Saul thought he was doing Gods work by persecuting Christians.

This concept doesn't add up for me, if god can just convict people and "move" them to make the right choices, why not just do that to everyone?

Because some people deep down inside Hate the love of the truth. They reject the message of The Atonement of the Messiah Jesus as foolishness or a stumbling stone (christianese evil). So those people are given over to deception and are not convicted or lifted up in understanding.

still, he says forgive them, not hey God please move them with your conviction power. I mean that seems like a reasonable thing to say on the cross, "God, show them what is wrong with nailing me to a cross and torturing me so that they too may come to know me and have everlasting life"....of course i'll admit simply saying forgive them SOUNDS much more divine, but essentially from your perspective this Jesus actually meant that other thing.

Jesus never had to say that other thing. He voiced a desire for them and that desire was accomplished.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days