Luke 23:34, hmm?

[oscarkipling]

He asked for them to be forgiven while He was on the cross and many of them where through the conviction of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. It is always God that moves people with conviction.

So Jesus asked for them to be forgiven and God proceeded to move them through the conviction of the Holy Spirit to embrace the love of His truth so that they where justifiably forgiven through the Atoning blood of the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

god "moved them" sounds alot like a clever way of saying they were forced without saying they were forced. This concept doesn't add up for me, if god can just convict people and "move" them to make the right choices, why not just do that to everyone? still, he says forgive them, not hey God please move them with your conviction power. I mean that seems like a reasonable thing to say on the cross, "God, show them what is wrong with nailing me to a cross and torturing me so that they too may come to know me and have everlasting life"....of course i'll admit simply saying forgive them SOUNDS much more divine, but essentially from your perspective this Jesus actually meant that other thing.

[oscarkipling]

I think it constitues a heart of love...

And love hopes all things. As men, which Jesus was (yes, also God), we judge no thing before it's time, but hope that indeed man may be turned from this way.

Consider then the story of Stephen. Stephen saying exactly the same thing would be quite appropriate: Paul was of those who stoned him!

Thus, love hopes all things, and gives itself for the sake of others.

I'm confident that in your mind this was a really clear and profound response to the questions posed....But you have to realize that i'm not fluent in christianese... so maybe i could get more out of it if you translated that into english.

[Desperaux]

I'm confident that in your mind this was a really clear and profound response to the questions posed....But you have to realize that i'm not fluent in christianese... so maybe i could get more out of it if you translated that into english.

The bible is not written in 'Christianese'.

[oscarkipling]

The bible is not written in 'Christianese'.

alright Desperaux what are you doing? Is your plan to whittle down my heartened heart with a barrage of pithy comments until Jesus seeps in? Or is it that you find me arrogant and annoying and you want to irritate me until I leave or say something that gets me banned? Either way i forgive you for you know not anything about me.

[Desperaux]

alright Desperaux what are you doing? Is your plan to whittle down my heartened heart with a barrage of pithy comments until Jesus seeps in? Or is it that you find me arrogant and annoying and you want to irritate me until I leave or say something that gets me banned? Either way i forgive you for you know not anything about me.

What I am seeing is honest people giving honest answers from scripture that is not hard to grasp if one is truly seeking and wants to be satisfied from the abundance of spiritual food there.

God's word is open and available and rich with truth for anyone who desires it, if one can read. Often, a little help from Christians is important, and that is what you are getting. A little graciousness is in order.

Jesus, in His immeasurable compassion for those who were committing a grave sin, chose to not retain their sins against them, so that when they repent, God will be able to forgive them.

Jesus, no hypocrite, was demonstrating his own command:

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

[Sojourner55]

Wow, there are some really beautiful pearls being cast in this thread. That's all I have to say.

[Bandit]

I don't understand why he needed to forgive them on the cross in order for them to repent later and be forgiven. If a person sins right now, and then a year from now they repent and ask forgiveness and accept Jesus and all that, they will be forgiven correct? It doesn't seem necessary for Jesus to forgive that sin at the time it happens in order to to forgive it at the time of repentance. Even if Jesus had "held it against them" does this really preclude Jesus from forgiving them if and when they repent?

Think of the impact upon those who heard Him. How many other victims of crucifiction do you think forgave their tormentors during the event? And what of the impact upon all the others that heard Him? This was a unique event.

[Bandit]

people keep saying this or something like it.. if they asked for forgiveness and repented then Jesus would forgive them anyway. Why is there a special request to forgive them if they were only forgiven after doing what everyone else that God forgives has to do...that is come to Jesus repent and ask for forgiveness. If they were not forgiven until after they saw the light as it were, what did he forgiveness on the cross do really?....also what is the reason that you believe everyone Jesus was referring to eventually repented?

Perhaps the request for forgiveness made such an impression on some that they eventually did repent. Jesus did nothing without purpose. Seek His purpose in everything He did, even this simple request for forgiveness.

[oscarkipling]

What I am seeing is honest people giving honest answers from scripture that is not hard to grasp if one is truly seeking and wants to be satisfied from the abundance of spiritual food there.

I mean you have to realize this is just a very fancy way of calling me dishonest or insincere....honestly although it probably shouldn't, it really hurts my feelings every-time.

God's word is open and available and rich with truth for anyone who desires it, if one can read. Often, a little help from Christians is important, and that is what you are getting. A little graciousness is in order.

come now, I've been a little gracious.

Jesus, in His immeasurable compassion for those who were committing a grave sin, chose to not retain their sins against them, so that when they repent, God will be able to forgive them.

Jesus, no hypocrite, was demonstrating his own command:

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

i feel like i keep asking the same question,...Jesus doesn't retain any sins against anyone as long as they ask for forgiveness, repent and accept him as their personal savior right? It appears you are saying that this requirement didn't change for these particular sinners, so at best the forgiveness from the cross was more like "if you do what I require of you to attain my forgiveness, I will forgive even you"...which honestly is pretty big of him still, but its not precisely forgiveness from the cross.

[oscarkipling]

Wow, there are some really beautiful pearls being cast in this thread. That's all I have to say.

pearls!!! they'll go great with my new lipstick and silk purse....thank you for this illuminating post.

[oscarkipling]

Think of the impact upon those who heard Him. How many other victims of crucifiction do you think forgave their tormentors during the event? And what of the impact upon all the others that heard Him? This was a unique event.

well, yeah, I completely agree as a rhetorical device, its very impressive.

[oscarkipling]

Perhaps the request for forgiveness made such an impression on some that they eventually did repent. Jesus did nothing without purpose. Seek His purpose in everything He did, even this simple request for forgiveness.

well, yeah its pretty obvious that this story is till causing people to become Christians, it even stirs feelings in me. It doesn't even matter if its true, or if its an interpolation or a flat out lie, its super effective...that is beyond question. This is the only explanation that makes sense to me though, that its just a way to illustrate Jesus' extraordinary grace, but doesn't actually bestow forgiveness upon the unrepentant...cuz that would be contrary to the idea that one must repent and ask forgiveness in order to receive forgiveness. If it is rhetoric, I feel its a bit manipulative (although effective), that's why I asked watchinginawe if he felt that this was beneath God to do.

[Bandit]

well, yeah, I completely agree as a rhetorical device, its very impressive.

So you do agree that probably on some (at least some), His words had an impact. I can only hope that at some point you become one of those impacted.

[Dani H]

Okay, I think what you are describing here is very much my idea of what God's forgiveness would mean in this context...what i don't understand is why Jesus forgave these people without them needing to repent or even realize what they were doing is wrong. It seems that for every other sin it is required that the human recognize their error, ask for forgiveness and sincerely try/intend not to repeat the offense. Is it true today that if i don't really believe or understand or fully grasp the implications or existence of sins that I'm forgiven automatically like these people? Can anyone honestly say that they understand the full implications of anything in regards to God? Idk, watching said that it makes some sense to think of it as rhetoric, and I can get behind that to a degree because as a symbolic gesture, its pretty effective. It illustrates a point about Jesus' character and purpose but as actual forgiveness as you have defined it here it seems pretty contrary to the way God's forgiveness normally works.

What forgiveness does, is provide the opportunity for reconciliation.

Say you sin against me. Maybe you don't even want a relationship with me right at that point. Or maybe you want something else more, and enough to hurt our relationship. Or maybe you're just ignorant. Whatever the case is. Ignorance ... purposefulness ... forgiveness, if real and complete, takes them both into account and deals with both, completely.

Regardless ... I choose forgive you, so that as far as I'm concerned I've dealt with the sinful action and its consequences, and the door is now open for you to reconcile with me. The forgiveness on my end is real and complete.

The cycle becomes complete once you come to me and allow reconciliation to happen on your end also. By acknowledging that you hurt our relationship and by allowing my forgiveness to heal that hurt, by receiving it and letting that remove whatever guilt or shame there is on your end now that you've realized what you did and how that has affected your relationship with me. The relationship can then continue unhindered, as if nothing has happened. Because forgiveness, when understood and enacted properly, is immensely powerful. So powerful, in fact, that once it's been allowed to do what it does, the original offense is a non-issue. That's how God can say "I don't even remember your sin anymore". And how the Bible can say that He removes our sin from us as far as the east is from the west (which is infinity). He no longer takes it into account. It's like it never happened, as far as the relationship aspect is concerned.

Relationships are always two-sided, see? God took care of His end of the deal, and the door is now open to us to step into that and receive it and build a real relationship with Him, should we so desire. That's how Saul, the persecutor, can come to Jesus, receive forgiveness, be permitted reconciliation with Him, and become Paul the apostle. Paul may say "Jesus came to forgive sinners of which I am chief" but his relationship with the Lord is now free from that sin, and there's nothing in the way between the two to hinder them from living happily ever after. Did Paul still have to deal with suspicion from other believers and did it take some years for him to establish himself and prove himself? Yes. But that was between Paul and those people, and not between Paul and Jesus. So other consequences still happened but Paul was able to come to Jesus, every day, unhindered, and allow himself to be transformed into a new person by the power of Christ's Spirit.

That's about as basic as I can make it. Let me know if you need further explanation.

Of course the relationship between two people is a lot different than a relationship between God and a person. Because God brings His own Person to the table, and with that His power and abilities. I don't have His kind of power, of course, and I'm not God. So any parallels drawn there are going to be limited, evidently.

Far as God is concerned, you're forgiven. Jesus isn't going to die again. What He did, He did once, for all, for everyone. God's forgiveness has always worked the same way, because from the beginning, God has ALWAYS been interested in reconciliation with His wayward creatures and has provided opportunity for that to happen, time and again.

But to step into that, again, you have to individually accept your part of the deal. There's a plate at the table for you. But you'd have to come to the table and start eating, for it to be a reality in your life. Again, a limited metaphor, but there you have it.

Remember Jesus came to undo everything that Adam's original behavior caused. The greatest part of that is to restore us to a relationship with God, the same relationship Adam and Eve had, free and unhindered. If you view it from where God sits and what His intentions were, then it'll probably make more sense than viewing it from a human level. Because all of this was initiated by God, for His own purpose.

[oscarkipling]

So you do agree that probably on some (at least some), His words had an impact. I can only hope that at some point you become one of those impacted.

Yes, I shall officially retract the idea that the forgiveness did nothing of consequence. I just don't think its impact was actual forgiveness from the cross...I mean how could it be? It doesn't even seem that anyone thinks that the forgiveness was just a strings free forgiveness that didn't require repentance etc later....but okay to be clear yes, that statement has had a huge and historical impact on the entirety of civilization.