A Question for my friend, Fenris

[Redeemed by Grace]

Oh I am sure.


My favorite is Artscroll, but it isn't online.

I actually like the KJV because it captures the poetic flow of Hebrew the best, but it's full of mistranslations.

So if I go out to Amazon and type Artscroll, I will find an English/Hebrew "OT" that you are referring to?


Thanks

[keck553]

So if I go out to Amazon and type Artscroll, I will find an English/Hebrew "OT" that you are referring to?


Thanks

You can get it on ebay also.

[ewq1938]

U.S. Federal regulations define a lamb as ovine animals of any age, including ewes and lambs.

Too bad their definition doesn't affect biblical, traditional ones lol

[rejoice44]

Too bad their definition doesn't affect biblical, traditional ones lol

Abraham told his son that God would provide a lamb, therefore it becomes obvious that the biblical definition and the traditional definition both agree that the ram was a male lamb.

[ewq1938]

Abraham told his son that God would provide a lamb, therefore it becomes obvious that the biblical definition and the traditional definition both agree that the ram was a male lamb.

All rams are technically male lambs but in biblical times a ram was specifically one used to impregnate the females while the other males were castrated. That's all I am saying.

[Fenris]

Why is that? Cornelius had a relationship with God before he knew anything about Jesus.

NT text is not a proof for me, sorry.

OK, you say that the Law is the antidote for sin, but you admit that it only makes things better and that the Law doesn’t transform a heart to the point that it never intentionally sins.

The law does transform a person's heart though. Of course it doesn't make a person perfect. As i said, the concept doesn't even exist in Judaism.

An antidote is something that completely cures.

I don't see how Christianity "completely cures" anything. So God forgives a person's sins. All of them. Couldn't that just lead to more sinning? God's going to forgive it anyway...

If the Sinai Covenant and Mosaic Law were just fine the way they were, why will God make a New Covenant that will transform hearts such that one will no longer intentionally sin?

In the post-messianic era, thousands of years later.

Wouldn’t you agree that the New Covenant sounds much closer to a sin cure than the Sinai Covenant? Sounds much closer to stopping the bleeding to me.

Again, no one needs a "cure" from sin. We have free will and can choose whether or not to sin.

By the way, what is it in Scripture that makes you believe there will be unintentional sin during the messianic era?

Ezekiel describes sacrifice during the third temple era.

[Fenris]

So if I go out to Amazon and type Artscroll, I will find an English/Hebrew "OT" that you are referring to?

Yeah it's there I just checked.

[LookingUp]

NT text is not a proof for me, sorry.

But you asked me a NT question. I said, “Repentant sinners who know nothing of Christ Jesus can be forgiven by God and fellowship restored.” You said, “There’s nothing in my bible to suggest anything of the sort.” What bible are you speaking of? Do you agree that Gentiles in lands outside of Jerusalem, its temple with its sacrifices could repent and be forgiven by God? Well, all I’m saying is that that didn’t change after the cross. If it had, that would mean fewer relationships with God could be restored after the cross than before. That’s just silly. Again, we see examples in both the OT and the NT that forgiveness could be offered to repentant sinners without an actual sacrifice/offering.

The law does transform a person's heart though. Of course it doesn't make a person perfect. As i said, the concept doesn't even exist in Judaism.

I agree that the Law can transform hearts when obeyed, but not to the degree that the New Covenant will when God writes the Torah on the hearts of His people. Man desperately tries to obey the Law in hopes it will transform his heart. That’s the Law working from the outside in. If this process was enough to transform hearts completely, there would be no need for God to come along and write His Laws on the hearts of His people. This will be the Law working from the inside out. You see, it’s not the Law that needs changing; it’s the heart. Our hearts are in an ongoing battle with sin. Sin, repent, sin repent. Thanks be to God that He can transform us (to a degree) through this process, but if it’s not the solution to completely transforming the heart then where does this ultimately lead? Who will save us from this vicious process that, ultimately, gets us nowhere close to being complete, whole, perfected, holy?

I don't see how Christianity "completely cures" anything. So God forgives a person's sins. All of them. Couldn't that just lead to more sinning? God's going to forgive it anyway...

Exactly. That’s my point. Daily forgiveness doesn’t permanently cure anything. We just keep sinning (eventually anyway), and we just keep offering up sacrifices, whether it be grain, vegetables, animals or Christ. What is it that Christ Jesus did other than become the once for all sacrifice so that we don’t have to daily offer up any particular possession? What does God provide through His chosen Messiah that wasn’t already provided through the Levitical priesthood with its sacrificial system? The answer to that is the way God provides a solution to the "heart of stone" and the unending sin-repent cycle.

In the post-messianic era, thousands of years later.

The New Covenant is for the messianic era, correct? If God wanted to keep things the way they are, He wouldn’t have to make a New Covenant. There is currently a flaw, not with the Law itself but with a very important aspect relating to that Law, and that is man’s propensity to sin. That is why we see that a main feature of the New Covenant is a new heart that will cause man to walk in His statutes. What will be provided through the New Covenant that the Levitical priesthood with its sacrificial system couldn’t? For one thing, a "heart of flesh" with the Torah written on it. If one is given a new heart on which the Torah is written, it seems that it will be very unlikely that man will sin against God and have need of the sacrificial system at all. But I’m still unclear on all the details of the messianic era.

Again, no one needs a "cure" from sin. We have free will and can choose whether or not to sin.

For now. But God wouldn’t bother changing anything if He wanted to keep things the way they are.

Ezekiel describes sacrifice during the third temple era.

What did a Jew do if he intentionally sinned against God? What were the factors involved in determining if he should immediately be put to death or given a chance to repent and make restitution?

[Fenris]

Christianity is predicated on the idea that God expects perfection, which is what makes Jesus's sacrifice necessary.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Christianity is predicated on the idea that God expects perfection, which is what makes Jesus's sacrifice necessary.

I would disagree on two accounts... But first, a positive comment. Even though you have stated in the past that as a Jew, you don't see Jesus as God in the flesh, you do correctly state that Jesus is perfect, which translates to sinless. So you do see that point correctly regarding a facet to Faith in Christ. So then, being a christian is not of man's perfection but God's, and Jesus sacrifice was more than transference of the blood of sheep and goats as what Jews were required to do at certain Holidays like the Passover, for if the Jews of Christ's day were looking closely, they would have seen the final payment and the victory of Jesus' death and resurrection.

Salvation is through the blood of Christ, and the temple sacrifices of the day were only pointers to Jesus. So not the need for perfection, but the need to be purchased, bought, atoned, redeemed, etc., for every one who believes -- has been bought with the precious price of the Blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. By God's grace, through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God, that He came to seek those that were sinners and had no hope, to be the hope and redeemer to all who would place their faith and trust in Him.... perfection doesn't... cut it. For if by perfection, men were saved, then no man, not even Abraham and Moses and David are saved... Then after being pulled out from sin's clenches, the believers now have His power and strength for obedience. But obedience is an outcome to salvation, and it's not until that believers death that all sin will be gone for good.

So postulating out loud here, and changing a gear here.... is there any plan that you are aware of within the world Jewish community that will act to bring back animal sacrifices [maybe as in the time of Moses] to maybe, er... a rebuilding of 'a temple' within the borders of Jerusalem? Is there any hubbub going on today to raise maybe funding, or to organize a campaign to reestablish traditional sacrifices as of old?


My theory - loosely based on what I see within the OT and NT is that now with Israel back in the land... and that Israel has reclaimed Jerusalem.... my eyes and ears are watching and listening for dialog that will rise from within the nation to say that there needs to be a Renaissance... a tuning back to God of their Fathers, if you will, and rebuild the temple once again.

I'd be curious to know from a Jewish friend who posts way more on a Christian forum than I if he is aware of such a movement today?

[Fenris]

I would disagree on two accounts... But first, a positive comment. Even though you have stated in the past that as a Jew, you don't see Jesus as God in the flesh, you do correctly state that Jesus is perfect, which translates to sinless.

I don't know where you get this idea. I don't believe that Jesus was perfect i.e. sinless. I am simply pointing out the Christian perspective.

Salvation is through the blood of Christ, and the temple sacrifices of the day were only pointers to Jesus.

I understand that this is a Christian concept.

For if by perfection, men were saved, then no man, not even Abraham and Moses and David are saved...

And there's the point. Jews don't believe that God expects perfection, in fact the very concept of abstract perfection does not even exist in Judaism. It's a Greek idea.

So postulating out loud here, and changing a gear here.... is there any plan that you are aware of within the world Jewish community that will act to bring back animal sacrifices [maybe as in the time of Moses] to maybe, er... a rebuilding of 'a temple' within the borders of Jerusalem?

As per Ezekiel 40-48, there will be a third temple in Jerusalem with animal sacrifice, yes.

Is there any hubbub going on today to raise maybe funding, or to organize a campaign to reestablish traditional sacrifices as of old?

No. Mostly for practical and logistical reasons, the third temple cannot be built at this time.

I'd be curious to know from a Jewish friend who posts way more on a Christian forum than I if he is aware of such a movement today?

Large numbers of secular Jews have returned to Orthodox Judaism, yes. The synagogue I go to is quite aggressive in it's outreach.

[LookingUp]

Christianity is predicated on the idea that God expects perfection, which is what makes Jesus's sacrifice necessary.

Were you going to respond to my post (#158)?

[Fenris]

But you asked me a NT question. I said, “Repentant sinners who know nothing of Christ Jesus can be forgiven by God and fellowship restored.” You said, “There’s nothing in my bible to suggest anything of the sort.” What bible are you speaking of? Do you agree that Gentiles in lands outside of Jerusalem, its temple with its sacrifices could repent and be forgiven by God? Well, all I’m saying is that that didn’t change after the cross. If it had, that would mean fewer relationships with God could be restored after the cross than before. That’s just silly. Again, we see examples in both the OT and the NT that forgiveness could be offered to repentant sinners without an actual sacrifice/offering.

But then this makes Jesus's sacrifice unnecessary. Welcome to Judaism.

I agree that the Law can transform hearts when obeyed, but not to the degree that the New Covenant will when God writes the Torah on the hearts of His people.

But this kind of renders human existence pointless. You're essentially saying that we're here to make one single choice. If we make that choice, God "writes the law on our hearts and we only do good". I see things rather differently. We're here to make choices, to overcome, every single day. When we all, on a societal level, make the right choices, we bring in the messianic era.

Man desperately tries to obey the Law in hopes it will transform his heart.

Jews obey the law because God said to. In the process that makes better people.

That’s the Law working from the outside in. If this process was enough to transform hearts completely, there would be no need for God to come along and write His Laws on the hearts of His people.

There isn't any need. That's God's reward, at the end of the process.

This will be the Law working from the inside out. You see, it’s not the Law that needs changing; it’s the heart.

You're right, the law doesn't need changing.

Our hearts are in an ongoing battle with sin. Sin, repent, sin repent. Thanks be to God that He can transform us (to a degree) through this process, but if it’s not the solution to completely transforming the heart then where does this ultimately lead? Who will save us from this vicious process that, ultimately, gets us nowhere close to being complete, whole, perfected, holy?

Why do we need to be perfect?

Exactly. That’s my point. Daily forgiveness doesn’t permanently cure anything. We just keep sinning (eventually anyway), and we just keep offering up sacrifices, whether it be grain, vegetables, animals or Christ. What is it that Christ Jesus did other than become the once for all sacrifice so that we don’t have to daily offer up any particular possession?

Kind of cheap grace.

The New Covenant is for the messianic era, correct?

Look around you. This isn't the messianic era.

For now. But God wouldn’t bother changing anything if He wanted to keep things the way they are.

Look around you. God hasn't changed anything.

What did a Jew do if he intentionally sinned against God?

Depends on the sin.

[Redeemed by Grace]

I don't know where you get this idea. I don't believe that Jesus was perfect i.e. sinless. I am simply pointing out the Christian perspective.

I'm agree that you are so thank you.

I understand that this is a Christian concept.

And there's the point. Jews don't believe that God expects perfection, in fact the very concept of abstract perfection does not even exist in Judaism. It's a Greek idea.

God always required obedience than sacrifice... So we agree again as well.... thanks for confirming.

As per Ezekiel 40-48, there will be a third temple in Jerusalem with animal sacrifice, yes.

Thanks as well for this confirmation.

No. Mostly for practical and logistical reasons, the third temple cannot be built at this time.

My opinion: is that it be more political than anything else... for the day that the temple were constructed again, I'd think it make the world news in a major way...

Large numbers of secular Jews have returned to Orthodox Judaism, yes. The synagogue I go to is quite aggressive in it's outreach.

I've noticed that as well... See I have a given name that is often mistaken for being Jewish and somehow have gotten newspapers and books and magazines from Jewish organizations mailed to me over the years with the notion on the senders part that I'm a Jewish... for which as a born again Christian, has been a learning tool for me, particularly with my studies in eschatology...

I think returning to orthodox Judaism is a first step in returning back to the way's of Moses. And in that, as a Christian, I see the mass rejection of Jesus as Israel's Messiah within the 1st Century, actually AD70 -- as the discipline of God and that 1947 and 1968 as pivotal years for a 'future' acknowledgment and repentance by Judah and Israel... and to Roger's sign post - is a pulse to watch and look out for.

So appreciate the awareness of more Jews seeking their Orthodox roots, for it supports the sum of the OT and NT words of scriptures, IMHO.

[Fenris]

My opinion: is that it be more political than anything else...

We don't even know the exact spot. We are all ritually impure and can't ascend the temple mount anyway.

I think returning to orthodox Judaism is a first step in returning back to the way's of Moses. And in that, as a Christian, I see the mass rejection of Jesus as Israel's Messiah within the 1st Century, actually AD70 -- as the discipline of God and that 1947 and 1968 as pivotal years for a 'future' acknowledgment and repentance by Judah and Israel... and to Roger's sign post - is a pulse to watch and look out for.

Well...I suppose time will tell....