Coffee Break
They all sinned. This is what the new testament tells us, "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". This is an example of God's mercy to those those that repent. All those sinners that chose to be on God's side were spared.Originally Posted by Fenris
Moses couldn't die for their sins because he had to die for his own. One would have to be sinless to die for the sins of someone else.Which is kinda different from Jesus dying as an atonement, hey.
Deadpan Snarker
I just don't see it. What's Moses's reason for God sparing the Jews? "What will the Egyptians say?". Not "They will do better". Not "they believe the right thing".
Jesus, on the other hand, requires that you believe he is god before he will advocate for you.
This seems to me to be a huge difference.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
So your proof that they all worshiped the golden calf is a line from Romans written some 1300 years later? I don't find this terribly convincing.
Moses doesn't ask to die for anyone's sins...Moses couldn't die for their sins because he had to die for his own.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
I live here!
Maybe the problem is, it's like we're all trying to compare apples to oranges, when we try to compare these two.
For example, I don't recall Moses ever claiming to be anyone in particular. So there was not that issue, that Moses was claiming to be someone that others rejected him as being.
OTOH, Jesus was claiming to be someone in particular, in which many were in opposition to His claims. So based on that, Jesus had to battle things of that nature, while Moses didn't, then on top of that, trying to be a mediator between them and God, all the while they are rejecting His authority to do so.
Deadpan Snarker
Would Moses have cared? Even better, Abraham intercedes for people who don't even know he's doing it.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
New and Improved
I'm missing something here, buddy. Jesus was sacrificed, as the Passover lamb, during Passover--to atone for the sins of the people; to seek forgiveness on their behalf, and die in their place--as the did annual Passover lamb from the time of Moses. Additionally, I think you would agree that the Jews also had to "believe the right thing" in order for the Passover to have the meaning God intended for them.
When God threatened to destroy the people, and use Moses to start over, Moses told God if he was going to to that kill him too. (I can't remember the passage exactly--you probably know it). That was the parallel I was referring to.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but the 7 similarities I cited between Jesus and Moses seem to push the envelope with regard to being mere coincidence. Anyway, as I said, I wasn't expecting a life-changing breakthrough.
When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.
Coffee Break
I wouldn't think that they all worshiped the golden calf, but rest assured they were all sinners. My bible says, to know to do good, and not do it is sin. How many that didn't worship the golden calf just stood by and said nothing?
No he didn't, but he did want to atone for their sins, his problem was that there was nothing he could offer that would appease God.Moses doesn't ask to die for anyone's sins...
Deadpan Snarker
Only one problem: The passover sacrifice was not a sin sacrifice.
We're not talking about sacrifices though. We're talking about advocates.Additionally, I think you would agree that the Jews also had to "believe the right thing" in order for the Passover to have the meaning God intended for them.
How is that a parallel? Moses isn't saying that he should be killed for their sins. He's saying "If you kill them, kill me too!" It's not the same at all.When God threatened to destroy the people, and use Moses to start over, Moses told God if he was going to to that kill him too. (I can't remember the passage exactly--you probably know it). That was the parallel I was referring to.
I don't see it that way. I don't see the men as having many similarities at all.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but the 7 similarities I cited between Jesus and Moses seem to push the envelope with regard to being mere coincidence.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
But this episode isn't about "miscellaneous sins". It's about the golden calf.
This is a point of faith, not a fact. Sin has consequence, even if God forgives it.No he didn't, but he did want to atone for their sins, his problem was that there was nothing he could offer that would appease God.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Coffee Break
[QUOTE]We have a different perspective of scripture. If we isolate scripture into separate tiny boxes we will never see the whole picture. I see the accumulation of sins from complaining that they would rather serve the Egyptians than God to complaining against the manna from heaven.
If the penalty for sin is death of the body, spirit, soul, and God forgives you of your sin, then is follows that you will not die for that sin. I agree that sin has consequences, but the consequence that results in death can be taken away by God.This is a point of faith, not a fact. Sin has consequence, even if God forgives it.
Senior Member
Yes, no one stopped it. There is a possibility the sons of Levi didn't worship the calf but it certainly sounds like everyone else did:
Exo 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
Exo 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Exo 32:34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
Exo 32:35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.
Senior Member
It is in the NT, so it would have been the same in the OT.
1Co_5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
New and Improved
Given your perspective due to the nature of your beliefs, and your commitment them--and therefore your perspective, your rejection of what I view as a compelling argument is understandable. If our roles were reversed, I'm sure I would hold to the same arguments you present. I only hope you understand the intent behind my heartfelt yet unfruitful efforts to present Jesus as your Messiah. You're a hard nut to crack, Fenris, but I love ya.
When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.
New and Improved
Moses didn't intercede in the same sense that Jesus did, but he was willing to sacrifice his life to change God's mind about killing all the Jews.
When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.
Deadpan Snarker
I know. And I find your perspective unconvincing, especially when you grab verses from all over the bible as "proof" of something when the local context is completely ignored.
Noplace in the bible.If the penalty for sin is death of the body, spirit, soul
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks