A Question for my friend, Fenris

[Sojourner55]

Let me preface the question: Unlike some Christians, I do not overlook the OT prophecies that foretell the permanent restoration of a remnant of Judah and Israel to their homeland; nor see the events of 1948 and 1967 as meaningless and irrelevant with regard to prophecy. (though I do maintain that the end result is contingent on a spiritual relationship between the remnant and Jesus as Messiah).

"I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything I command him.
I will personally deal with anyone who will not listen to the messages the prophet proclaims on my behalf."
(Deut 18:18-19 NLT)

Fundamentalist Christians of course, believe this prophet spoken of by God, was fulfilled in Jesus. Moreover, that failure to heed the words of Jesus, as that prophet, was the reason God "dealt with" those who refused to believe Him by destroying Jerusalem and their beloved temple-- and sending the survivors as outcasts into a hostile world for nearly 2000 years.

Assuming the translation I cite is accurate, and faithful to the original Hebrew:
1. How do you, as a Jew, envision this prophet as a future person?
2. In what way, and to what extent, will those who do not heed his words, be punished?
3. Does your view generally reflect that held by most Orthodox Jews today?

[Fenris]

Your friend huh?

This actually came up in a discussion here not too long ago.

I think sometimes we have to remove from ourselves the understanding that we have because we've read the whole bible, and try to see the message as the Hebrews in the desert saw it.

Up until that point in time, to their knowledge, God had used only one person as a spokesman on this earth: Moses. Now, maybe Moses would be the only spokesman that God would ever use. This was a new phenomena after all. So Deuteronomy 18 is a message to them and future Jews: Moses will not be the last person God uses to communicate with them. There will be others. It's not about any one specific prophet, but rather about prophecy in general.

So on to your questions:

1. How do you, as a Jew, envision this prophet as a future person?

It's not any one person, but prophets in general.

2. In what way, and to what extent, will those who do not heed his words, be punished?

The punishment is unspecified.

3. Does your view generally reflect that held by most Orthodox Jews today?

...I guess? Judaism is generally more concerned with what God wants us to do than in how we are to understand some prophecy or another. So the law gets much more discussion than a verse like this, which has no practical ramifications at this point in time.

[Sojourner55]

Your friend huh?

Sure you are. Not just as the token Jew in the neighborhood, either.

This actually came up in a discussion here not too long ago.

Sorry, missed it.

I think sometimes we have to remove from ourselves the understanding that we have because we've read the whole bible, and try to see the message as the Hebrews in the desert saw it.
Up until that point in time, to their knowledge, God had used only one person as a spokesman on this earth: Moses. Now, maybe Moses would be the only spokesman that God would ever use. This was a new phenomena after all. So Deuteronomy 18 is a message to them and future Jews: Moses will not be the last person God uses to communicate with them. There will be others. It's not about any one specific prophet, but rather about prophecy in general.

So on to your questions:

It's not any one person, but prophets in general.

The punishment is unspecified.

...I guess? Judaism is generally more concerned with what God wants us to do than in how we are to understand some prophecy or another. So the law gets much more discussion than a verse like this, which has no practical ramifications at this point in time.

Hmm...I see. According to the New Testament, however, (I know, I know...indulge me), the first century Jews seemed to be looking for a specific person, because they asked John the baptizer if he was the guy:
This was John's testimony when the Jewish leaders sent priests and Temple assistants from Jerusalem to ask John, "Who are you?"
He came right out and said, "I am not the Messiah."
They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No."
(John 1:19-21)

When word about the eccentric holy man in the desert got out, and the Sanhedrin sent representatives to check him out, the first thing they wanted to know was, "do you claim to be the Messiah?" The second was, "are you Elijah?" And the third, was, "Are you the prophet?" Bearing in mind that the original text was written by Messianic Jews, this exchange seems to imply that "the prophet" to them, was an individual, like the Messiah or Elijah, rather than a reference to a group of people. Just sayin.

[Fenris]

I don't get the reference to "the prophet". There were plenty of prophets, although none (from the Jewish perspective) since Malachi.

[Firstfruits]

I don't get the reference to "the prophet". There were plenty of prophets, although none (from the Jewish perspective) since Malachi.

What commands would God give that have not already be given by God to be obeyed?

Deut 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Deut 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Firstfruits

[Fenris]

What commands would God give that have not already be given by God to be obeyed?

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.

[John 8:32]

Here we go again, same theme, different thread.

[Fenris]

Here we go again, same theme, different thread.

Well, there is a Jewish perspective to the bible. Some Christians (not in this thread, mind you) seem to think that Jews don't know what's in our own bible. That if they post a few Christian proof-texts, Jews will say "OMG that's in the bible?! I've been wrong all along, let me run not walk to the nearest church to convert!!!!11!!"

[Sojourner55]

I don't get the reference to "the prophet". There were plenty of prophets, although none (from the Jewish perspective) since Malachi.

Well, my understanding is that "the prophet" was the one God foretold in the Deuteronomy passage cited. That verse seems to refer to the prophet in question in the singular sense, grammatically--though I certainly defer to your knowledge of the Hebrew language. The point is, there was a string of messianic types before and during the history of Israel depicted in the four Gospels; and when the Jews went out to investigate John, "the messiah," "Elijah," and "that prophet" were three individuals he was questioned about being. Unless the singular sense is not supported by the Hebrew, I don't understand why you don't see the Jews as referencing a specific individual.

[Fenris]

Well, this is interesting. In Hebrew, verse 18 simply says "a prophet" , and verse 19 does not contain the words "the prophet" at all. Quick translation of verse 19: "And it shall be, the man who does not listen to the words that he shall speak in My name..."

Verse 20 does have the words "the prophet", but that verse doesn't help you.

The messiah is understood by Jews as being a prophet. But Deuteronomy 18 is not considered messianic, it's about prophets in general.

[Sojourner55]

Well, this is interesting. In Hebrew, verse 18 simply says "a prophet" , and verse 19 does not contain the words "the prophet" at all. Quick translation of verse 19: "And it shall be, the man who does not listen to the words that he shall speak in My name..."

Verse 20 does have the words "the prophet", but that verse doesn't help you.

The messiah is understood by Jews as being a prophet. But Deuteronomy 18 is not considered messianic, it's about prophets in general.

Darn! I thought sure I'd have you down at the front of the church, shouting "Hallelujah!" Seriously....though it sounds condescending, and I don't mean it that way, your spiritual blindness is the same as that upon the Jews of the first century. There never did seem to be a clear concept of the Messiah for the average Jew did it? That's why Jesus was not recognized. I mean, despite numerous references about the Messiah by the prophets, no one was certain if would be a prophet, a king, or a combination of the two. The identity of the suffering One Isaiah spoke of--declared to be the arm of the Lord--has never been adequately addressed by Jews--nor the amazing parallels between the 7 Jewish feasts and the events in the life of Jesus. But i know you can't see these things as I do--I know that. But it saddens me. Sorry if I'm too close and personal in public here, but I've always tended to wear my heart on my sleeve. <SNIFF> I love you man! Incidentally, my apologies for duplicating the point dealt with in a previous thread, and opening up a tasteless can of re-hash. I missed the other one somehow.

[markedward]

There is the interesting possibility that 'the prophet' mentioned in John 1.21 is not a direct reference to Deuteronomy 18.15-18, but to an actual person:

We see a sort of triple-expectation of the people: the Messiah, Elijah, and the Prophet. The first two are mentioned in John 7.40-41: Messiah, or the Prophet. We find the latter two of these referenced in Mark 6.15, when people were trying to guess who Jesus was: Elijah, or a prophet. But the parallel to this verse as found in Matthew puts it differently: Elijah, or Jeremiah. There is some record of Jews specifying Jeremiah as being 'the' fulfillment of Deuteronomy 18.15 (final paragraph), so it could be that when the Jews thought either John or Jesus was 'the Prophet', they had Jeremiah in mind.

[Sojourner55]

There is the interesting possibility that 'the prophet' mentioned in John 1.21 is not a direct reference to Deuteronomy 18.15-18, but to an actual person:

We see a sort of triple-expectation of the people: the Messiah, Elijah, and the Prophet. The first two are mentioned in John 7.40-41: Messiah, or the Prophet. We find the latter two of these referenced in Mark 6.15, when people were trying to guess who Jesus was: Elijah, or a prophet. But the parallel to this verse as found in Matthew puts it differently: Elijah, or Jeremiah. There is some record of Jews specifying Jeremiah as being 'the' fulfillment of Deuteronomy 18.15 (final paragraph), so it could be that when the Jews thought either John or Jesus was 'the Prophet', they had Jeremiah in mind.

Hmm..interesting. Never heard that before. I still see a reference to Jesus however, in Moses' statement that God would raise up a prophet like him from among the Jews, whom they would be required to listen to:
Moses continued, "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him." (Deut 18:15 NLT)

Jesus is in fact, identified in the NT as the prophet that Moses spoke of (Acts 7:37), and Jesus Himself declared to the Jews that Moses had written of Him (John 5:46).

The reference to this coming prophet being "like" Jesus is particularly intriguing when one considers the parallels between Jesus and Moses:

1. Both were rescued from a massacre as an infant.
2. Both spent time in Egypt.
3. Both were spokespersons for God.
4. Both interceded before God for the Jews.
4. Both communicated with God from a mountaintop.
5. Both were rejected by the Jews as a judge and ruler.
6. Both stood before a Gentile ruler who exercised power over the Jews.
7. Both were visibly transformed by God's glorious presence, and "glowed."

There are others, but I can't remember them right now. The point is, Jesus just seems to fit what Moses said too perfectly to be mere coincidence. But, that's just the way I see it.

[markedward]

Jesus is in fact, identified in the NT as the prophet that Moses spoke of (Acts 7:37),

Right, here in Acts. I'm not saying that Deuteronomy 18.15-18 doesn't apply to Jesus; it does based on those passages in Acts. But that could easily just be that the Apostles were saying that Jesus was a true prophet, not a false one. What I'm suggesting is that 'the Prophet' of John 1.21 may have been an indirect way of referring to Jeremiah.

and Jesus Himself declared to the Jews that Moses had written of Him (John 5:46).

True, but Jesus doesn't specifically reference this verse... he references 'Moses' in general. His meaning is that the Law as a whole testifies to Jesus, the same as the Prophets and the Writings.

The reference to this coming prophet being "like" Jesus is particularly intriguing when one considers the parallels between Jesus and Moses:

The majority of parallels are almost incidental. The second applies to Abraham. The third applies to every prophet (since, in Hebrew the word for 'prophet' is literally 'spokesperson'). The fourth applies to any person who has bothered to pray on behalf of the nation (in particular Daniel, Ezra, and Nehemiah come to mind). The (second) fourth applies to Elijah and probably also Saul of Tarsus. The fifth applies to a few figures of Scripture, at least a few times in their lives (Samuel, David, Ezra). The sixth of Elijah, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, and Nehemiah. The seventh is, I think, intentionally worded in such a way as to make a similarity where there is none; Jesus himself physically changes (his description corresponds more to Ezekiel's and Daniel's description of angelic figures), whereas Moses simply reflected the radiance of God.

The point is, Jesus just seems to fit what Moses said too perfectly to be mere coincidence.

I do agree that some parallels are specifically drawn in Scripture between Jesus' life and Moses' life. But these parallels, which are found mostly in the gospel of Matthew, are not meant to say that Jesus is 'a prophet like Moses'... most people who see the parallels in Matthew's gospel stop short. What Matthew does is not to say that Jesus is like Moses, but to say that Jesus is the embodiment of Israel. The entire gospel is filled with such parallels between Jesus and Israel; the comparisons with Moses are only a piece.

[Sojourner55]

Right, here in Acts. I'm not saying that Deuteronomy 18.15-18 doesn't apply to Jesus; it does based on those passages in Acts. But that could easily just be that the Apostles were saying that Jesus was a true prophet, not a false one. What I'm suggesting is that 'the Prophet' of John 1.21 may have been an indirect way of referring to Jeremiah.

True, but Jesus doesn't specifically reference this verse... he references 'Moses' in general. His meaning is that the Law as a whole testifies to Jesus, the same as the Prophets and the Writings.

The majority of parallels are almost incidental. The second applies to Abraham. The third applies to every prophet (since, in Hebrew the word for 'prophet' is literally 'spokesperson'). The fourth applies to any person who has bothered to pray on behalf of the nation (in particular Daniel, Ezra, and Nehemiah come to mind). The (second) fourth applies to Elijah and probably also Saul of Tarsus. The fifth applies to a few figures of Scripture, at least a few times in their lives (Samuel, David, Ezra). The sixth of Elijah, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, and Nehemiah. The seventh is, I think, intentionally worded in such a way as to make a similarity where there is none; Jesus himself physically changes (his description corresponds more to Ezekiel's and Daniel's description of angelic figures), whereas Moses simply reflected the radiance of God.

I do agree that some parallels are specifically drawn in Scripture between Jesus' life and Moses' life. But these parallels, which are found mostly in the gospel of Matthew, are not meant to say that Jesus is 'a prophet like Moses'... most people who see the parallels in Matthew's gospel stop short. What Matthew does is not to say that Jesus is like Moses, but to say that Jesus is the embodiment of Israel. The entire gospel is filled with such parallels between Jesus and Israel; the comparisons with Moses are only a piece.

Well Markedward, you can marginalize the similarities, and generalize if you want. I didn't intend each one to stand on its own. I think, taken as a whole, the evidence is compelling that God intended for Moses to be a type and foreshadow of Jesus--which is all I was pointing out. I think He intended to instill respect among the Jews for Moses as His messenger, then send the One Who was the superior fulfillment of that type. I believe the writer of Hebrews summed that up best when he said:

For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (Hebrews 3:3)

I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out, that most of the parallels I cite appear in Matthew. It's interesting to note that Matthew also presents more OT passages as being fulfilled by Jesus than Mark, Luke, and John combined. So we'll have to respectfully disagree on this point. I think very clearly, the Gospels seek to present Jesus as the prophesied Jewish Messiah, and one even more worthy of honor than the honorable and beloved Moses, who was but a foreshadow. (Sorry Fenris)