A Question for my friend, Fenris

[divaD]

Another difference between our theologies. I believe that Christians are already "good enough", they don't have to come around to my way of thinking.
I'm more interested in the messianic implications of the second half of Ezekiel 37:

Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; 23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; so shall they be My people, and I will be their God. 24 And My servant David shall be king over them, and they all shall have one shepherd; they shall also walk in Mine ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, for ever; and David My servant shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them--it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. 27 My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever.'

which hasn't been completely fulfilled and we are still waiting for.

If one tries to fit that passage into the 1st century for instance, and the fact that Jerusalem was eventually destroyed at the time, then how does one make sense out of some of the following parts?

And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, for ever; and David My servant shall be their prince for ever.

And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel

Of course, the way a lot of Christians deal with a passage like this, it's meant to be understood as spiritual, and not literal. With that in mind then, the LORD never literally gave any literal land to Jacob? That's what you would have to believe if you somehow spiritualize this passage. Then it says...And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel..keeping in mind if this happened in the 1st century, that Jerusalem was eventually destroyed. So IOW, the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel, because soon after Jerusalem was destroyed.
But it's not just this passage that many Christians spiritualize, they do it with numerous OT passages, especially of the prophetic kind. One may as well get it over with and spiritualize everything the Jews ever did in the OT, and just conclude none of it ever happened in a literal sense.

[Fenris]

If one tries to fit that passage into the 1st century for instance, and the fact that Jerusalem was eventually destroyed at the time, then how does one make sense out of some of the following parts?

It obviously hasn't happened yet, the second temple era was not a fulfillment of this prophecy. But it will happen. I mean, would God say and not do? Speak and not fulfill? (Numbers 23:19)

[LookingUp]

Yup. A very pivotal difference between our theologies.

Another difference between our theologies. I believe that Christians are already "good enough", they don't have to come around to my way of thinking.
I'm more interested in the messianic implications of the second half of Ezekiel 37:

Fenris, how is the Mosaic Law the antidote for sin?

[Fenris]

Fenris, how is the Mosaic Law the antidote for sin?

For one thing, it delineates right from wrong, which we would otherwise not know. Then, by following it we become what we do (as I am fond of saying); repeated acts become part of our nature. Man can sanctify himself and sanctify the world through the law.

[LookingUp]

For one thing, it delineates right from wrong, which we would otherwise not know.

Man did not know right from wrong for the thousands of years before the Law was given?

Then, by following it we become what we do (as I am fond of saying); repeated acts become part of our nature.

But for those who don't continually follow the Law, the Law is not the antidote. Is that right?

Man can sanctify himself and sanctify the world through the law.

But some men were not able to sanctify themselves--they were destroyed by God as a result of their sin. Shouldn't an antidote work equally on all who try it?

[Fenris]

Man did not know right from wrong for the thousands of years before the Law was given?

Not in such specificity, no. The law is the most extensive communication between God and man up to that point. Some laws were given to Noah, but not so many or in such detail.

But for those who don't continually follow the Law, the Law is not the antidote. Is that right?

I wouldn't say that. Even a person who does a single good deed is infinitely better than he had been before.

But some men were not able to sanctify themselves--they were destroyed by God as a result of their sin. Shouldn't an antidote work equally on all who try it?

"Try" it? I don't even know what this means. Those generations that were punished were open rebellious, and that has consequences, among them exile and suffering. I don't know of anyone being "destroyed" although many were killed.

[Silvermist]

Those were Romans, not Jews. And this seems to be the sole case where Jesus forgives people out of ignorance.

So yeah, no parallel.

um, really? And here I've been told that anyone who doesn't believable goes to hell forever. Were the people who told me that mistaken?

Because of their ignorance, not out of His.

Anyone who does not believe before they die. If you were to change your mind tomorrow, Jesus would welcome you with open arms.

[Fenris]

If you were to change your mind tomorrow, Jesus would welcome you with open arms.

Moses and Abraham made no requests of the people they advocated for, which is why I still claim that they were better advocates than Jesus. In my opinion.

[LookingUp]

Not in such specificity, no. The law is the most extensive communication between God and man up to that point. Some laws were given to Noah, but not so many or in such detail.

But you agree that man knew right from wrong before the Law was given, and knowing right from wrong didn’t stop anyone from sinning. Now that it has been given with “such specificity,” has that completely cured anyone of their sin problem? No, people still go on sinning. There is still no cure, even with the Law given.

I wouldn't say that. Even a person who does a single good deed is infinitely better than he had been before.

Better, yes. Infinitely better, no. How does being “better” cure the sin problem? People continue to sin. From what you know of the New Covenant that will be made with the house of Israel, how does that relate to curing the sin problem?

"Try" it? I don't even know what this means.

“Take” the antidote (i.e. apply the Law). Seems there were many who lived according to the Law and ended up just dying in their sin anyway.

Those generations that were punished were open rebellious, and that has consequences, among them exile and suffering. I don't know of anyone being "destroyed" although many were killed.

Right, they died in their sin. In other words, they were not on good terms with God when they died because they were sinning against Him. The antidote didn’t work in their case.

[Fenris]

But you agree that man knew right from wrong before the Law was given, and knowing right from wrong didn’t stop anyone from sinning. Now that it has been given with “such specificity,” has that completely cured anyone of their sin problem? No, people still go on sinning. There is still no cure, even with the Law given.

People may commit sins, but they do good deeds too. This appears to have been lost on you.

Better, yes. Infinitely better, no. How does being “better” cure the sin problem? People continue to sin. From what you know of the New Covenant that will be made with the house of Israel, how does that relate to curing the sin problem?

Why the obsession with sin? Do good deeds not exist? Do they have no value? Is the world not a better place that the bible was given?

“Take” the antidote (i.e. apply the Law). Seems there were many who lived according to the Law and ended up just dying in their sin anyway.

I don't know what this means either "dying in their sin".

Right, they died in their sin. In other words, they were not on good terms with God when they died because they were sinning against Him.

How do you know what terms they were on with God when they died? really now.

[LookingUp]

People may commit sins, but they do good deeds too. This appears to have been lost on you.

People were doing good deeds before the Law was given. So, how is the Law the antidote for sin?

Why the obsession with sin?

You said the Law is the antidote for sin, and I’m trying to figure out how that is.

Do good deeds not exist?

Good deeds exist.

Do they have no value?

Good deeds have value.

Is the world not a better place that the bible was given?

Of course, I agree the world is a better place with Hebrew Scriptures. But how does that cure the sin problem? Less sin? Great. That doesn’t cure it. An antidote is a complete cure; not a band-aid.

I don't know what this means either "dying in their sin".

Dying at a time of continually rebelling against God.

How do you know what terms they were on with God when they died? really now.

Wicked men who die while rebelling against God are not on good terms with God. The Law didn’t cure anything for them.

[keck553]

One of the disconnects is right here. Jews do not believe that man is in spiritual bondage. We have free will. The law is the antidote for sin, not the messiah.

Understood. Thank you.

[LookingUp]

Understood. Thank you.

Understood? How is the Law the antidote for sin? Sin still exists.

[Fenris]

People were doing good deeds before the Law was given.

Again: Not with specificity.

So, how is the Law the antidote for sin?

Repeated good acts transform the doer, becoming part of his nature.

Good deeds exist.

Good deeds have value.

Apparently less value than sin.

Of course, I agree the world is a better place with Hebrew Scriptures. But how does that cure the sin problem? Less sin? Great. That doesn’t cure it. An antidote is a complete cure; not a band-aid.

The purpose of human existence is not to be perfect. It's to struggle and overcome. If I sin today but feel so bad about it that I don't sin tomorrow, that has great value to God. Even the sin becomes part of the process of improvement.

Dying at a time of continually rebelling against God.

Continually, every second?

Wicked men who die while rebelling against God are not on good terms with God.

Um, again, I am not be so presumptuous to say who is or isn't on good terms with God.

[Fenris]

Understood? How is the Law the antidote for sin? Sin still exists.

The Christian solution is "sin exists, but God chooses to ignore it". I don't see how this is such a great improvement.