A Question for my friend, Fenris

[LookingUp]

But then this makes Jesus's sacrifice unnecessary. Welcome to Judaism.

The “Christianity” I’m involved in is Judaism with Messiah at its center. We follow Messiah (i.e. Christ), because he has the words of God in him. He reveals God in the fullest way to mankind in this age.

But this kind of renders human existence pointless.

It is written that when God puts His Spirit within His people and writes His Torah on their hearts, He will cause them to walk in His statutes. This will not render human existence pointless. Why do you say it will render human existence pointless? I thought you agreed with this understanding of the New Covenant.

You're essentially saying that we're here to make one single choice.

The choice of right over wrong. That’s daily. Those who practice right doing are those who are responding to the God who created them. They are embracing rather than resisting the Holy Spirit. That’s an expression of saving faith, in my opinion. I get this idea from Paul in Romans 2. Paul tells us that circumcision is of value if you follow the Law, but if you don’t follow the Law your circumcision becomes meaningless (vs. 25) (i.e. "faith without works is dead). He tells us that this works both ways. If you aren’t circumcised but follow the Law, it’s as if you’re circumcised (vs. 26). In other words, God looks at the heart--He's looking for a circumcised heart. He doesn’t look at your foreskin to determine if you will be accepted by Him and He doesn’t look at your baptismal certificate to see if you’re “Christian” to determine if you will be accepted by Him.

If we make that choice, God "writes the law on our hearts and we only do good". I see things rather differently. We're here to make choices, to overcome, every single day. When we all, on a societal level, make the right choices, we bring in the messianic era.

I don’t think the messianic era (i.e. the redemption of Israel) will come about through your works any more than your redemption from Egypt came about through your works.

“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.” (Ez. 36:25-28).

Sounds like an awful lot of "I wills" in there. It's God who will do all the work. Your job is to be a people of faith.

Will God bring in the messianic era and do all of this (including giving the new heart) because of all the right choices Israel makes?

“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; …Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in you own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Lord GOD, let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!’” (Ez. 36:29-32)

Jews obey the law because God said to. In the process that makes better people.

There isn't any need. That's God's reward, at the end of the process.

You're right, the law doesn't need changing.

It’s certainly a reward, and if it’s a “reward,” that tells me it’s an improvement that God finds value in. But from the sound of Ezekiel, it doesn’t sound as if the house of Israel will “deserve” any reward at the time He chooses to put His Spirit within them, give them a new heart, and cause them to walk in His statutes.

Why do we need to be perfect?

God desires that His people be pure.

Kind of cheap grace.

I don’t understand your comment. What is it that Christ did that the Levitical priesthood with its sacrificial system couldn’t do?

Look around you. This isn't the messianic era…

Right, God has not yet caused His people to walk in His statutes (i.e. the new heart/writing on the heart has not been implemented).

Why does God desire to write His Torah on the hearts of His people?

Does God provide His people with a new heart through the Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system? If not, why not?

If God wanted to keep things the way they are, why does He provide the New Covenant?

[Fenris]

The “Christianity” I’m involved in is Judaism with Messiah at its center. We follow Messiah (i.e. Christ), because he has the words of God in him. He reveals God in the fullest way to mankind in this age.

When you reach this point, it ceases to be Judaism.

It is written that when God puts His Spirit within His people and writes His Torah on their hearts, He will cause them to walk in His statutes. This will not render human existence pointless. Why do you say it will render human existence pointless? I thought you agreed with this understanding of the New Covenant.

Ahem. Are we living in the messianic era?

The choice of right over wrong. That’s daily.

I don't see how. Either one accepts jesus as god, or they don't.

I don’t think the messianic era (i.e. the redemption of Israel) will come about through your works any more than your redemption from Egypt came about through your works.

And yet other prophets say otherwise. Isaiah said "Zion shall be redeemed with justice, and they that return of her with righteousness."

So we really don't know what will bring about the end, until it actually happens.

God desires that His people be pure.

Does God expect perfection?

I don’t understand your comment. What is it that Christ did that the Levitical priesthood with its sacrificial system couldn’t do?

You're undermining the whole basis of Christianity. If Jesus did something that ordinary sacrifice could accomplish, what was the point?

Right, God has not yet caused His people to walk in His statutes

That's your sole definition of the messianic era? What about the world peace? Universal knowledge of God? Rebuilt temple? Exiles gathered?

Why does God desire to write His Torah on the hearts of His people?

As a reward. Not as part of the process.

Does God provide His people with a new heart through the Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system?

No, what would the point be? The value is in the struggle.

If God wanted to keep things the way they are, why does He provide the New Covenant?

Because at a certain point history will end. But it hasn't, yet.

[LookingUp]

When you reach this point, it ceases to be Judaism.

Judaism is still Judaism with a Messiah. Jesus is Messiah and anointed King over Israel. He is also High Priest. Judaism has all these things. Nothing in Christianity contradicts Judaism. Some things are fulfilled but nothing is contradicted. New rewards are offered but nothing is contradicted.

Ahem. Are we living in the messianic era?

No, we’re not. Did or did you not say that having God’s Spirit within His people, writing His Torah on their hearts, and causing them to walk in His statutes renders human existence pointless? I don’t think it does. When this happens, it will be a new era of human existence but it certainly doesn’t render it pointless.

I don't see how. Either one accepts jesus as god, or they don't.

Show me one Scripture in the NT that says one must accept Jesus as God. Just one. You won’t find it because it doesn’t exist. The only verse misguided Christians will use is “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins” (John 8:24). Those who claim this means he is saying you must believe he is God Almighty are deceiving others or are deceived. The passage continues. "So they were saying to him, 'Who are you?' Jesus said to them, 'What have I been saying to you from the beginning?'" Well, look throughout the gospels and look at every single verse in the NT and you will not find that Jesus taught them that he was God. His very claims about himself ALWAYS differentiated himself (i.e. son) from God the Father. His claim was always the same:

“He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Messiah, the son of the living God’ (Mt. 16:15-16).

“And the high priest said to him, ‘I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Messiah, the son of God’” (Mt. 26:63).

“Again the high priest was questioning him, and saying to him, ‘Are you the Messiah, the son of the blessed One?’” (Mk. 14:61).

“’If you are the Messiah, tell us.’ But he said to them, ‘If I tell you, you will not believe’” (Lk. 22:67).

“The Jews then gathered around him, and were saying to him, ‘How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.’ Jesus answered them, ‘I told you, and you do not believe…’” (John 10:24-25).

“And they all said, ‘Are you the son of God, then?’ And he said to them, ‘Yes, I am’” (Lk. 22:70).

“’He who believes in the son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him’” (John 3:36).

Notice in the above verse that “believes” and “obey” are essentially synonymous. If you don’t obey, it’s a certain indicator you don’t believe. And the son only taught what the Father wanted him to teach. And these are the son’s words, “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law of the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill…Whoever annuls on of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Mt. 5:17-19).

And yet other prophets say otherwise. Isaiah said "Zion shall be redeemed with justice, and they that return of her with righteousness."

So we really don't know what will bring about the end, until it actually happens.

Well, yes, that’s true too. Quite a peculiar prophecy. It sounds as if Israel will stray quite far from God, He will get their attention through extreme measures, they will repent, and He will redeem them. In this way, it’s really still all about God. Had God not allowed the extreme measures, they would continue to stray and would find themselves without a God. But He won’t let that happen. It’s all about Him. Although it’s they who return who will be saved (see also Isa. 59:20-21) they only return because of what He will allow to happen. I think that’s why it is written, “I am not doing this for your sake.”

Does God expect perfection?

To be honest, I’m not sure what that means. But it is written, “You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy.”

You're undermining the whole basis of Christianity. If Jesus did something that ordinary sacrifice could accomplish, what was the point?

I’m sorry, I think you misunderstand me. I am claiming that Jesus did do something that ordinary sacrifice could not accomplish. He accomplished what ordinary sacrifice could accomplish and then some (the “then some” is not contradictory to Judaism). So, my question to you is, what is it that Messiah did that the Levitical priesthood with its sacrificial system couldn’t do? What is it that you think he accomplished, according to your understanding so far?

You must admit that God wants to reward you with something that, so far, He has not rewarded you with. That reward is, at least, a new heart. Why does God want to do this? He must find value in being able to walk in His statutes flawlessly. How God chooses to make provision for this reward is up to Him. If He chooses to reveal to His people HOW it is He makes provision for this “then some,” why should we complain about His "how"? If it is through His chosen Messiah that He makes provision, what is it to us? It doesn’t contradict Judaism.

That's your sole definition of the messianic era?

No. But that’s the particular aspect of the messianic era we’re currently discussing.

What about the world peace? Universal knowledge of God? Rebuilt temple? Exiles gathered?

Absolutely. None of which has yet happened. Christianity offers deepened hope (& additional informational specifics) regarding these New Covenant promises and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through faith (which seals the child of God for the promises to come). Israel knew that God would raise His people back to life to enjoy the everlasting kingdom. They didn’t ask how this would be accomplished; they just knew that God would accomplish it. In my opinion, Jesus could have come and accomplished all that he did without anyone ever knowing about it. The fact that we are made aware is simply God’s gift to us. We are made privy to God’s plan! He could accomplish His plan without making us aware of it, but He does because He wants to extend this message of redemption to the entire world so that they are not without hope.

As a reward. Not as part of the process.

No, what would the point be? The value is in the struggle.

And God finds value in giving a reward of a new heart.

Because at a certain point history will end. But it hasn't, yet.

History? It’s not like humans won’t continue to exitst.

[ewq1938]

History? It’s not like humans won’t continue to exitst.

At one point, humans will cease to exist.

Fenris,

Could Jesus ever rightfully become the Messiah for Jews? Or is that something Jesus could never qualify for?

[LookingUp]

At one point, humans will cease to exist.

Fenris,

Could Jesus ever rightfully become the Messiah for Jews? Or is that something Jesus could never qualify for?

Glorified Jesus wasn't/isn't human?

[ewq1938]

Glorified Jesus wasn't/isn't human?

No, he was in a glorified, spiritual body:

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

the "vile body" is the human body" but the "glorious body" that we will receive is not the same, and it is like his resurrected body. He looked human (so do angels), and he kept his scars (we won't I assume) but he was not human. He was a divine being, the son of God who also is God.

[LookingUp]

No, he was in a glorified, spiritual body:

He was in a glorified human body.

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

the "vile body" is the human body" but the "glorious body" that we will receive is not the same, and it is like his resurrected body. He looked human (so do angels), and he kept his scars (we won't I assume) but he was not human. He was a divine being, the son of God who also is God.

Well, he wasn't a spirit. "See my hands and my feet that it is I myself, touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have" (Lk 24:39).

[ewq1938]

Well, he wasn't a spirit.

Nope, he wasn't a spirit. He wasn't a human being anymore either.

[rejoice44]

Does God expect perfection?

Perhaps the question should be, does God tolerate sin?

[Noeb]

No, he was in a glorified, spiritual body:

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

the "vile body" is the human body" but the "glorious body" that we will receive is not the same, and it is like his resurrected body. He looked human (so do angels), and he kept his scars (we won't I assume) but he was not human. He was a divine being, the son of God who also is God.

The body is only part of our nature. If you change less than 100% of the nature of a thing the thing remains. We are not, and neither was Jesus, recreated. Jesus said the is returning as the Son of man. Scripture says right now he is the one mediator, the man Christ Jesus. Revelation and the OT says God dwells with man forever on earth.

[keck553]

At one point, humans will cease to exist.

So God created humans just to get rid of them? Where does the Bible say this?

[LookingUp]

The body is only part of our nature. If you change less than 100% of the nature of a thing the thing remains. We are not, and neither was Jesus, recreated. Jesus said the is returning as the Son of man. Scripture says right now he is the one mediator, the man Christ Jesus. Revelation and the OT says God dwells with man forever on earth.

Good point. "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

[Fenris]

Judaism is still Judaism with a Messiah. Jesus is Messiah and anointed King over Israel. He is also High Priest. Judaism has all these things. Nothing in Christianity contradicts Judaism. Some things are fulfilled but nothing is contradicted. New rewards are offered but nothing is contradicted.

A religion with god incarnate as the messiah is not Judaism, sorry.

No, we’re not. Did or did you not say that having God’s Spirit within His people, writing His Torah on their hearts, and causing them to walk in His statutes renders human existence pointless? I don’t think it does. When this happens, it will be a new era of human existence but it certainly doesn’t render it pointless.

Whatever it is, it hasn't happened yet.

Show me one Scripture in the NT that says one must accept Jesus as God.

You're going to have to take this up with your fellow Christians. I'm not here to defend Christian doctrine.

Well, yes, that’s true too. Quite a peculiar prophecy. It sounds as if Israel will stray quite far from God, He will get their attention through extreme measures, they will repent, and He will redeem them.

The point being, we don't know what order events will take in the redemption of Zion.

To be honest, I’m not sure what that means. But it is written, “You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy.”

"holy" does not mean "perfect". As I have said several times, the concept of abstract perfection does not exist in Judaism. It's a Greek idea.

I’m sorry, I think you misunderstand me. I am claiming that Jesus did do something that ordinary sacrifice could not accomplish. He accomplished what ordinary sacrifice could accomplish and then some (the “then some” is not contradictory to Judaism). So, my question to you is, what is it that Messiah did that the Levitical priesthood with its sacrificial system couldn’t do? What is it that you think he accomplished, according to your understanding so far?

I don't think Jesus "did" anything, aside from being crucified as a rebel.

You must admit that God wants to reward you with something that, so far, He has not rewarded you with.

The reward awaits us in the messianic era.

Absolutely. None of which has yet happened. Christianity offers deepened hope (& additional informational specifics) regarding these New Covenant promises and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through faith (which seals the child of God for the promises to come). Israel knew that God would raise His people back to life to enjoy the everlasting kingdom. They didn’t ask how this would be accomplished; they just knew that God would accomplish it. In my opinion, Jesus could have come and accomplished all that he did without anyone ever knowing about it. The fact that we are made aware is simply God’s gift to us. We are made privy to God’s plan! He could accomplish His plan without making us aware of it, but He does because He wants to extend this message of redemption to the entire world so that they are not without hope.

These are all points of faith, not fact. Everything that Jesus "accomplished" remains unseen, in the "spiritual realm". Meanwhile, the visible effects of the "messiah" all await a "second coming".

And God finds value in giving a reward of a new heart.

In the messianic era.

History? It’s not like humans won’t continue to exitst.

The world will be a changed place. And we aren't there, yet.

[Fenris]

Fenris,

Could Jesus ever rightfully become the Messiah for Jews? Or is that something Jesus could never qualify for?

The messiah will be a man, not a god.

[Fenris]

Perhaps the question should be, does God tolerate sin?

What kind of sin?

Accidental sin?

Sin where a person tries their hardest but falls short?

Sin where a person gives into their base desires?

Sin where a person sins in defiance of God?