A Question for my friend, Fenris

[Fenris]

I'm not sure what to make of what you're saying. Did they really hear a voice?

Did they really see a face?

Or was it something they saw in their mind?

Did Paul see Jesus? Or did hear a voice that no one else heard?

It’s significant because you said that the new heart is a reward for Israel’s great job at obeying the Law.

Hmm. No, it seems to be Israel's reward for repenting.

Yet we’re told that the new heart is given just after Israel strays.

Just after? I don't see a timeframe.

And the new heart is given SO THAT they will obey the Law. It just doesn’t make any sense that they are rewarded with a gift of obeying the Law because they’re already obeying the Law. And, besides, Scripture doesn’t teach they’re in the middle of obeying the Law when the new heart is given. They’re in the middle of walking away from God, He calls them back, He gathers them…God’s the one who does everything to get them to repent. God rewards them because He is faithful. Not because they are faithful. Do you agree? Do you see this in Scripture?

I think you're mixing references. Jeremiah 31 which mentions the "New covenant" (if you like to call it that" doesn't say anything about following the law. It only says that God will write the Torah on our hearts.

Right. In the messianic era or, I would say, at the inauguration of the messianic era.

Which also hasn't happened yet.

Exactly. So, what’s the new heart about? So that they will follow the Law from their hearts, which is the ideal way to follow the Law. It’s within them. It comes out naturally because it’s in the heart. God will have to accomplish this. It’s His doing. They will follow the Law in this flawless, beautiful manner because God causes them to do so by writing Torah on their hearts. What is not accomplished at this time will be accomplished in the next era by God.

Maybe what's important is what's accomplished now.

Well, Scripture says that God will give them a new heart, a heart of flesh. It sounds like they’re in need of a heart change and God is the one who has to do it.

If that was what God really wanted, He could have circumvented that by not giving man free will in the first place.

The point isn't to be in Eden. It's to get back their by our accomplishments.

The point isn't to accept charity from God. It's to earn an honest wage with honest labor.

If there’s nothing wrong with the heart, what do you make of Scriptures like “The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick”? (Jer. 17:9) Scripture also speaks of this need to have the heart circumcised. Sounds like it’s something with the heart of a person that needs changing.

Deuteronomy 30 makes it sound like the heart is ok. But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Sure. It reminds them and with the reminder, they will be more likely to do it.

No. It says that you WILL do it. Just like the prophets say that the Jews will follow the law. So maybe it doesn't mean "perfectly" in either instance. Think about it.

I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying. Do you believe God can forgive any sin that one genuinely repents of?

Not if God wasn't the subject of that sin, no.

Don’t you agree? We see that God forgave sin in the OT. We see that God gave Jesus authority to forgive sin during his ministry. So, sure, God had been in the business of forgiving sin for a very long time.

I dislike the idea that "Of course God will forgive, that's what He's there fore".

In any case. If you're going to adopt this line of thought I don't see why Jesus is necessary.

I, personally, think that when God says He will give Israel a new heart and cause them to walk in His statutes that this suggests that He desires a flawless obedience to His Law.

You're entitled to your opinion.

The obedience will be flawless in that it will come from within, straight from the heart. I don’t think it’s about “remembering His Laws” as if the Laws are written on their minds to remind them. I think Scripture suggests it will be more than that. It will become part of who they are and this will cause them to live out the heartfelt intent of the Law at all times. This is what I mean by flawless.

Which still leaves the possibility of accidental sin.

Everything God accomplishes is for His good pleasure (Isa. 46:10).

Even sin I suppose

[Fenris]

No, I think it's more likely the "our" of yours will come to see God in his form and all his glory one day.

Isaiah 41:11 – Behold, all those who were incensed against you shall be ashamed and confounded; they who quarreled with you shall be as naught, and be lost.

[ewq1938]

Isaiah 41:11 – Behold, all those who were incensed against you shall be ashamed and confounded; they who quarreled with you shall be as naught, and be lost.

Yeah we have one of those too:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Let us be the men gathering the withered branches, and not be the branches being burned, agreed?

[Fenris]

Let us be the men gathering the withered branches, and not be the branches being burned, agreed?

I'm not worried.

So said the Lord of hosts: "In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the garment of a Jewish man, saying: 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you'."

You can hold onto my garment, I don't mind.

[ewq1938]

I'm not worried.

That is what worries me.

So said the Lord of hosts: "In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the garment of a Jewish man, saying: 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you'."

You can hold onto my garment, I don't mind.

How kind but I hope to already be at the destination you would be traveling towards but by all means bring as many as you can.

[LookingUp]

Or was it something they saw in their mind?

I don’t know. To me, it sounds like something “appeared” to them.

Did Paul see Jesus? Or did hear a voice that no one else heard?

It’s written that both Paul and those with him heard the voice. Paul was blinded, so I believe this means he wasn’t able to see Jesus even if he appeared to them. Those with Paul saw no one.

Hmm. No, it seems to be Israel's reward for repenting.

I can agree with that.

Just after? I don't see a timeframe.

Technically, you’re right. We don’t know exactly how long after. Do you think the gathering has begun and that once all have been gathered back to the land a mass repentance will take place? Do you feel obligated to move to Israel?

I think you're mixing references. Jeremiah 31 which mentions the "New covenant" (if you like to call it that" doesn't say anything about following the law. It only says that God will write the Torah on our hearts.

Don’t you think Ez. 36:25-27 is about the new covenant of Jer. 31?

Don’t you think Isaiah 59:20-21 is about the new covenant of Jer. 31?

Which also hasn't happened yet.

Well, I believe that a foretaste took place on Pentecost. But Israel was not ready to receive their Messiah and God’s message, they didn’t repent en masse, and the promises were put on hold. That’s from a NT perspective, of course.

Maybe what's important is what's accomplished now.

It is. It’s part of the process. I believe we’re on a journey, though, and the next era will lead to greater spiritual development. I do think it's fascinating pondering what the messianic era will be like.

If that was what God really wanted, He could have circumvented that by not giving man free will in the first place.

He doesn’t want it now.

The point isn't to be in Eden. It's to get back their by our accomplishments.

One man, who was quite close to God, and one woman lost it because they chose themselves over God. But you think men will gain it back by choosing God over themselves?

The point isn't to accept charity from God. It's to earn an honest wage with honest labor.

His reward comes after another failure. His reward, as you’ve seen, is for repentance.

Deuteronomy 30 makes it sound like the heart is ok. But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Not so sure if that says “the heart is ok.” I suppose we could go through Scripture and pick out the passages that show the heart is in need of change.

No. It says that you WILL do it. Just like the prophets say that the Jews will follow the law. So maybe it doesn't mean "perfectly" in either instance. Think about it.

So when God says He will give Israel a new covenant, not like the one they broke (iow, they won’t break this one), but one that will allow the law to be written on their hearts so that all will know the Lord and that He will cause them to obey His statutes…all this for the very same thing we see now? Then what’s new about it?

Not if God wasn't the subject of that sin, no.

You don’t think God is offended when we sin against another? If so, don’t we also need His forgiveness when we sin against another?

I dislike the idea that "Of course God will forgive, that's what He's there fore".

Well, I’m not sure I would put it that way but without His forgiveness we’re in a heap of trouble.

In any case. If you're going to adopt this line of thought I don't see why Jesus is necessary.

Because everyone dies and is need of the “fruit” of the tree of life. That’s what God provides through Jesus.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Which still leaves the possibility of accidental sin.

Something I haven’t considered until our conversation. It’s certainly gives me more to think about.

Even sin I suppose

Well, that topic deserves a thread of its own, doesn’t it? :-)

[rejoice44]

According to Christians.

Which is almost every single person on this forum. Could I also mention again that almost everything you touch has been recorded with a date that may be exact, or may be off by three or four years due to human reckoning.

I don't see how even a Christian could say this. God aka Jesus lives forever, so what did being "sacrificed" really cost?

The New Testament says "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

What did it cost God to put on fleshly humanity? What did it cost him to put on the sins of the world? How can we humans understand how great a sacrifice God made for us? We can't.

No danger of you doing that, you mock them every chance you get.

God has presented to us the sinful nature of man, starting with Adam who was burdened with only one restriction, and then Noah who due to drunkenness caused others to fall. Abraham due to his indiscretion has Israel surrounded by enemies. Moses couldn't wait on the Lord and took justice into his own hand. David committed sins for which the law had no remedy.

Does this mean I do not rejoice with their victories, or does it simply mean that God has made it clear to us the sinfulness of man?

We are all sinners needing a redeemer.

By the way, Benjamin Netanyahu is one of the men I most respect of nation leaders.

[Fenris]

That is what worries me.

Doesn't worry me.

How kind

You are welcome.

[Fenris]

I don’t know. To me, it sounds like something “appeared” to them.

How convenient that is vindicates your viewpoint, huh?

It’s written that both Paul and those with him heard the voice. Paul was blinded, so I believe this means he wasn’t able to see Jesus even if he appeared to them. Those with Paul saw no one.

Aha. They saw no one. How interesting.

Technically, you’re right. We don’t know exactly how long after. Do you think the gathering has begun

Yes.

and that once all have been gathered back to the land a mass repentance will take place?

Unknown

Do you feel obligated to move to Israel?

Not at this point, no.

Don’t you think Ez. 36:25-27 is about the new covenant of Jer. 31?

Don’t you think Isaiah 59:20-21 is about the new covenant of Jer. 31?

Bible does not say.

Well, I believe that a foretaste took place on Pentecost. But Israel was not ready to receive their Messiah and God’s message, they didn’t repent en masse, and the promises were put on hold. That’s from a NT perspective, of course.

Oh, of course.

My bible doesn't say anything about the Jews rejecting the messiah, or being wrong about him, or whatever.

It is. It’s part of the process. I believe we’re on a journey, though, and the next era will lead to greater spiritual development. I do think it's fascinating pondering what the messianic era will be like.

Yup.

He doesn’t want it now.

Indeed.

One man, who was quite close to God, and one woman lost it because they chose themselves over God.

They lost it because they desired true free will.

His reward comes after another failure. His reward, as you’ve seen, is for repentance.

After what failure. I don't even understand.

Not so sure if that says “the heart is ok.” I suppose we could go through Scripture and pick out the passages that show the heart is in need of change.

maybe we should.

God told Cain "sin crouches outside your door, but you may overcome it".

So when God says He will give Israel a new covenant, not like the one they broke (iow, they won’t break this one), but one that will allow the law to be written on their hearts so that all will know the Lord and that He will cause them to obey His statutes…all this for the very same thing we see now? Then what’s new about it?

It doesn't say "the law" it says "The Torah" and it uses the same language as Numbers does about the fringes on the garment. You can't just ignore this.

You don’t think God is offended when we sin against another? If so, don’t we also need His forgiveness when we sin against another?

We also need the forgiveness of the victim.

Well, I’m not sure I would put it that way but without His forgiveness we’re in a heap of trouble.

Don't worry, He will forgive that's what He's there for.

Because everyone dies and is need of the “fruit” of the tree of life.

According to who?

[Fenris]

Which is almost every single person on this forum.

Who happen to be (surprise surprise!) Christian.

What did it cost God to put on fleshly humanity? What did it cost him to put on the sins of the world? How can we humans understand how great a sacrifice God made for us? We can't.

Fine, so it's beyond human comprehension. Then you have to stop saying what a "great sacrifice" it was, since it doesn't seem to be one.

Does this mean I do not rejoice with their victories

You don't seem to.

By the way, Benjamin Netanyahu is one of the men I most respect of nation leaders.

And what OT biblical figures do you admire?

[rejoice44]

And what OT biblical figures do you admire?

All whose heart was right before God. God declared Moses to be the meekest man upon the earth. God declared that David had a perfect heart. Surely Daniel was one God honored. I admire all those that had a heart toward God.

[rejoice44]

We also need the forgiveness of the victim.

How did that work for David concerning Uriah?

[Fenris]

How did that work for David concerning Uriah?

Once again, I am making David an exceptional case. I'm not aware of other examples of this nature.

[rejoice44]

Once again, I am making David an exceptional case. I'm not aware of other examples of this nature.

What about Moses, he murdered an Egyptian. Did that Egyptian forgive Moses?

[Fenris]

What about Moses, he murdered an Egyptian.

Murder? No, that seems to have been a case of defending someone else.

As a former police officer, I would think you would understand this point.