Do Christians Partake of the New Covenant Promised to Israel?

[episkopos]

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).

Ephraim is the fulness of the Gentiles. When we of Ephraim come in it is simultaneously the fulness of the Gentiles (melo hagoyim) AND ALL Israel...represented in both houses of Israel, one a visible nation, and the other a spiritual nation.

Concerning Ephraim and the blessing of Israel (Jacob)....

Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
(actually it says melo hagoyim which means a fulness of Gentiles or nations) This is what Paul was referring to!



This shows that Israel is also a congregation of Gentiles (nations)...not just a physical nation.

Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

A Company of nations is kehal goyim which can mean a "church of Gentiles" or nations. So Israel is NOT just a physical marker bur also a spiritual one.

[JerryShugart]

The "nation" never did and never will but all of the original Christians did like Paul, Peter, and the gang, all 'of' Israel but remember not all Israel is Isreal. They had the kingdom of God within them as Jesus told about.

Of course at some point in the future the houses of Judah and Israel will repent and will be a blessing:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).

The following verse speak about the New Covenant and the part which the houses of Judah and Israel will play in bringing the Gentiles to salvation:

"Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you...Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:3,5; NIV).

[Mark F]

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).

Ephraim is the fulness of the Gentiles. When we of Ephraim come in it is simultaneously the fulness of the Gentiles (melo hagoyim) AND ALL Israel...represented in both houses of Israel, one a visible nation, and the other a spiritual nation.

Concerning Ephraim and the blessing of Israel (Jacob)....

Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
(actually it says melo hagoyim which means a fulness of Gentiles or nations) This is what Paul was referring to!



This shows that Israel is also a congregation of Gentiles (nations)...not just a physical nation.

Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

A Company of nations is kehal goyim which can mean a "church of Gentiles" or nations. So Israel is NOT just a physical marker bur also a spiritual one.

How do you make this connection? (from Romans) that we are Ephriam? The word Nations is the same even for God's promise to Abraham. The children of Israel were told not to go outside of their tribes to marry, it seems to me that you are saying that it was encouraged.

[divaD]

The following verse speak about the New Covenant and the part which the houses of Judah and Israel will play in bringing the Gentiles to salvation:

"Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you...Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:3,5; NIV).

This of course has to happen before the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, correct?

[JerryShugart]

Concerning Ephraim and the blessing of Israel (Jacob)....

Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
(actually it says melo hagoyim which means a fulness of Gentiles or nations) This is what Paul was referring to!

The Hebrew words melo hagoyim means "fulness of nations" so Genesis 48:19 is saying that "his seed shall fill up the nations."

The following from another site explains how that happened:

"Now, I want you to keep in mind that the Hebrew word 'goyim' that is translated “Gentiles” is also translated as 'nations.' An Orthodox Jewish Rabbi was being interviewed on the Zola Levitt television program recently (July 2001), and he pointed out that, at the present time, the citizens of Israel come from over 108 different nations. There are Dutch Jews, German Jews, Russian Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Pakistani Jews, American Jews, Spanish Jews, and even some Chinese Jews. Each of these groups considers themselves to be Dutch, German, Russian, etc.; but yet they are first and foremost Jews. So Israel has literally become a 'nation of nations' or a 'nation of goyim.'

[JerryShugart]

This of course has to happen before the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, correct?

Let us look at the verse which speaks of the "times of the Gentiles:

The following verse is describing what happened in 70AD:

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Lk.21:24).

The times of the Gentile domination over Jerusalem began in the captivity of 586 BC. And by the time of the great tribulation in the future Jerusalem will once again fall under Gentile domination. This will be the time when the "man of sin" will be in charge in Israel:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thess.2:3-4).

It will not be until the Lord Jesus returns and fights againist all the nations which will come against Jerusalem will the time of Gentile domination come to an end:

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem" (Zech.14:2-4).

[divaD]

Let us look at the verse which speaks of the "times of the Gentiles:

The following verse is describing what happened in 70AD:

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Lk.21:24).

Since I myself don't see this as having been fulfilled in 70 AD. I would then conclude this is debatable, and not based on an absolute.

Getting back to Isaiah 55, when would you say the time frame was in the passages you supplied...(Isa.55:3,5)? Before Christ returns? When Christ returns? Or after Christ returns, which could pretty much mean the same as when Christ returns?

The reason I ask is, because Isaiah 55 goes on to say this.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

I would think if this were to be understood post Christ's return, it then seems odd that anyone would be needing to seek the LORD while he may be found, especially since Jesus would be physically present at that point.

BTW, overall, as pertaining to this thread, I'm not certain if I agree or disagree with you. But I do think we're on the same page as far as Jeremiah 31:31-34 is concerned. I can't imagine much of that already being fulfilled. But as far as everything else, I'm not certain yet.

[episkopos]

The Hebrew words melo hagoyim means "fulness of nations" so Genesis 48:19 is saying that "his seed shall fill up the nations."

The following from another site explains how that happened:

"Now, I want you to keep in mind that the Hebrew word 'goyim' that is translated “Gentiles” is also translated as 'nations.' An Orthodox Jewish Rabbi was being interviewed on the Zola Levitt television program recently (July 2001), and he pointed out that, at the present time, the citizens of Israel come from over 108 different nations. There are Dutch Jews, German Jews, Russian Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Pakistani Jews, American Jews, Spanish Jews, and even some Chinese Jews. Each of these groups considers themselves to be Dutch, German, Russian, etc.; but yet they are first and foremost Jews. So Israel has literally become a 'nation of nations' or a 'nation of goyim.'

You are using propaganda here that is against the revelation of Jesus Christ. Why is this propaganda necessary for your position?

Do you also hold that Isaiah 53 is NOT about Jesus Christ but rather about the people of Israel?

[ewq1938]

Ephraim is the fulness of the Gentiles. When we of Ephraim come in it is simultaneously the fulness of the Gentiles (melo hagoyim) AND ALL Israel...represented in both houses of Israel, one a visible nation, and the other a spiritual nation.

I agree with most of this post. Since gentiles are grafted onto "Israel" they are not a separate nation, nor only a spiritual nation. They join Israel all being one visible nation, all a spiritual nation as well. Being born into Israel at that time is no different than being added to Israel. That's why it is said, "There is no Jew or Greek"...As far as Christ is concerned, we are all equals in Him. Keep in mind also that most natural branches have had to be grafted onto that tree too since any natural branches that denies Christ were removed. Only when one that used to be a natural branch comes to Christ, then they are grafted to the tree just as the others had been. The only natural branches that have always exited on the tree would be those that accepted Christ during the early days of the Gospel IMO.

One last point:

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;



We aren't talking about two different kinds of trees here. Both are olive trees. Some people talk about Gentiles like they are aliens or something. (not you just in general)

[dan p]

RockSolid,

The Gentiles were never under the Old Covenant, which was called the "law":

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).

Besides that, we read that "Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).

I am just curious, but why did you not respond to any of the verses which I quoted in my initial post, verses which I believe supports my views?

Hi , and Eph 2:12 absolutly says that Gentiles were NEVER given any type of Covenant , period , dan p

[JerryShugart]

Getting back to Isaiah 55, when would you say the time frame was in the passages you supplied...(Isa.55:3,5)? Before Christ returns? When Christ returns? Or after Christ returns, which could pretty much mean the same as when Christ returns?

The reason I ask is, because Isaiah 55 goes on to say this.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

I would think if this were to be understood post Christ's return, it then seems odd that anyone would be needing to seek the LORD while he may be found, especially since Jesus would be physically present at that point.

I believe that verse 5 is speaking about what will happen in the future while verse 6 & 7 are referring to the time when the book of Isaiah was written.

For instance, the first part of verse 3 applies to the present time and then it says, "I will make an everlasting covenant with you." The last part of verse 3 is referring to things which remain in the future.

Now let us look again at the verse that speaks of the "everlasting covenant" and in this passage that covenant is placed in the future:

"Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you...Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:3,5; NIV).

Here we see that Gentile salvation will be through the agency of the nation of Israel. But at the present time Paul says that Gentile salvation is through Israel's fall:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Ro.11:11-12).

This clearly shows that the Gentiles are not being saved according to the "everlasting covenant" when nations that do not know Israel will hasten to her. Gentile salvation is not now being accomplished according to prophecy but instead what is happening now was not revealed in prophecy since it is according to the "mystery" program:

"and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things" (Eph.3:9).

[JerryShugart]

You are using propaganda here that is against the revelation of Jesus Christ. Why is this propaganda necessary for your position?

Actually, I said the following and then gave an explanation as to what that means:

The Hebrew words melo hagoyim means "fulness of nations" so Genesis 48:19 is saying that "his seed shall fill up the nations."

You previous remarks agree with my statement. You said:

(actually it says melo hagoyim which means a fulness of Gentiles or nations) This is what Paul was referring to!

[ewq1938]

Hi , and Eph 2:12 absolutly says that Gentiles were NEVER given any type of Covenant , period , dan p

Period? You sure about that Dan?

Gen_9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Gen_9:17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

Gen_15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen_17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

Gen_17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

These were gentiles and they had covenants with God.

[dan p]

Period? You sure about that Dan?

Gen_9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Gen_9:17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

Gen_15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen_17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

Gen_17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

These were gentiles and they had covenants with God.

Hi , and sorry about that and I mean the New Covenant for that was what Jerry S . is talking about !

But , the New Covenant will never be implement with out the Davdic , Palestinian , and Abrahamic Covenant , and Eph 2:12 stands , dan p

[ewq1938]

Hi , and sorry about that and I mean the New Covenant for that was what Jerry S . is talking about !

But , the New Covenant will never be implement with out the Davdic , Palestinian , and Abrahamic Covenant , and Eph 2:12 stands , dan p

Eph 2:12 doesnt state they were never given the covenant, but there was a time when they did not have it. They have it now in Christ.