Do Christians Partake of the New Covenant Promised to Israel?

[John146]

Sorry, I forgot to respond to this post.

And you still haven't really responded to what I said specifically. Do you have any thoughts on how Gal 4:26-28 relates to Romans 9:6-8?

Abraham “received the sign of circumcision so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised” (Rom. 4:11). Abraham is the father of Gentiles with faith. The next verse says that Abraham is the “father of the circumcision” (natural Israel). The verse goes on and says that Abraham is not only the father of the circumcision (natural Israel) but “of those (in natural Israel) who follow the steps of faith of Abraham” (Rom. 4:12). Abraham is the father of natural Israel with faith (“spiritual Israel”). He is the “spiritual” father of two groups: Gentiles with faith and natural Israel with faith.

In Rom. 9:6 Paul says that just because they’re circumcised (Israel) doesn’t mean they’re part of Israel (“spiritual Israel”). Then Paul says NEITHER are they (Israel) the seed of Abraham just because they’re related to him. It’s only those with faith who are the seed of Abraham. Abraham is the father of natural Israel with faith (“spiritual Israel”).

I'm not seeing your point. Not only are only those with faith the spiritual seed of Abraham but also it is only those with faith who are of spiritual Israel. Physical circumcision is not required to be among the spiritual seed of Abraham nor is it required to be part of spiritual Israel.

[John 8:32]

And you still haven't really responded to what I said specifically. Do you have any thoughts on how Gal 4:26-28 relates to Romans 9:6-8?

I'm not seeing your point. Not only are only those with faith the spiritual seed of Abraham but also it is only those with faith who are of spiritual Israel. Physical circumcision is not required to be among the spiritual seed of Abraham nor is it required to be part of spiritual Israel.

Occaisionally we agree...

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[John146]

You guys are going round and round about natural Israel and spiritual Israel. I would like to put forth that this has always been the case. (not your going round and round, but that there has always been spiritual Israel..)

Circumcision did not make a natural Israelite a spiritual Israelite.

I don't think anyone is saying that. What LookingUp appears to be saying, though, is that one has to be a natural Israelite (whether circumcised or not) in order to be a spiritual Israelite and I disagree with that. Based on Romans 9:6-8 those who are part of spiritual Israel are called in Isaac (or through Isaac), are "the children of God" and "the children of the promise". I showed from Gal 4:26-28 how Paul even includes Gentile believers as being among those who "as Isaac was, are the children of promise" so that means Gentile believers meet the criteria for being part of spiritual Israel. In Eph 2:11-22 I believe Paul makes the point that Gentiles were once foreigners to spiritual Israel but are now fellow citizens of spiritual Israel with Israelite believers.

[percho]

Sorry, I forgot to respond to this post. Abraham “received the sign of circumcision so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised” (Rom. 4:11). Abraham is the father of Gentiles with faith. The next verse says that Abraham is the “father of the circumcision” (natural Israel). The verse goes on and says that Abraham is not only the father of the circumcision (natural Israel) but “of those (in natural Israel) who follow the steps of faith of Abraham” (Rom. 4:12). Abraham is the father of natural Israel with faith (“spiritual Israel”). He is the “spiritual” father of two groups: Gentiles with faith and natural Israel with faith.

In Rom. 9:6 Paul says that just because they’re circumcised (Israel) doesn’t mean they’re part of Israel (“spiritual Israel”). Then Paul says NEITHER are they (Israel) the seed of Abraham just because they’re related to him. It’s only those with faith who are the seed of Abraham. Abraham is the father of natural Israel with faith (“spiritual Israel”).

How is Abraham the father of both? Answer. To Abraham (only) and to his seed, singular, Christ (only) were the promises made. I do not know what year the book of Hebrews was written however it was some years after the death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ and in that year it is stated that Abraham died not having received the promises. Stephen some years after the death and resurrection of Christ also said Abraham at that time had not received the promises. Abraham the father of the seed to whom the promise was made. Even Abraham will receive the promises by his seed the Christ. The promise in reality is the gift of God, eternal life. The hope of this promise was made before time began Titus 1:2 and was made for the singular seed of Abraham, the Christ the only begotten of God the Father who DIED being obedient to the faith. God the Father raised him from the dead, quickened him Gal.1:1 John 5:21 1 Cor 15:45,46 giving him life in himself John 5:26 eternal life, the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (which is life) of Jesus who had DIED commending his spirit (the source of life) into the hands of the Father the very moment before he DIED.

That is what the Faith is. Christ being obedient unto death, the shedding of his blood and his being given eternal life by God the Father by his being the firstborn from the DEAD.

Gal. 3:19 says until (Jesus the Christ) the seed should come to whom the promise was made.
Gal 3:23 speaks of before the faith came and
Gal 3:25 says after that the faith did come
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of the faith; (which is because of ) who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
It was because of, the faith of Jesus Christ , that the promise of the Holy Spirit might be given to the the ones taken out of the Gentiles as a people for his name. Compare Gal. 3:22 to Gal 3:14 which should end through the faith with Acts 15:14.



This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing, of faith?

I put the comma after hearing.

[episkopos]

Of course the death of the Lord Jesus did ratify the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel but in order for it to come into effect it was necessary for the nation of Israel to repent. And on the day of Pentecost we see Peter telling the nation that if she repented then her sins would be blotted out and the Lord Jesus would be sent to them so that they could enjoy His presence:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

Of course the nation did not repent so even though the New Covenant had been ratified by His blood it did not come into effect. It would be ridiculous to even imagine that a people who refused to repent would begin to receive the benefits of that covenant.

Luk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
Luk 14:17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
Luk 14:18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
Luk 14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
Luk 14:22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
Luk 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
Luk 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

[LookingUp]

I don't think anyone is saying that. What LookingUp appears to be saying, though, is that one has to be a natural Israelite (whether circumcised or not) in order to be a spiritual Israelite and I disagree with that. Based on Romans 9:6-8 those who are part of spiritual Israel are called in Isaac (or through Isaac), are "the children of God" and "the children of the promise". I showed from Gal 4:26-28 how Paul even includes Gentile believers as being among those who "as Isaac was, are the children of promise" so that means Gentile believers meet the criteria for being part of spiritual Israel. In Eph 2:11-22 I believe Paul makes the point that Gentiles were once foreigners to spiritual Israel but are now fellow citizens of spiritual Israel with Israelite believers.

I'm not saying "has to be," I'm saying if you happen to be part of Israel through the flesh and you have faith, then you're part of "spiritual Israel." In Romans 9:6-8 Paul is saying that they're not all of Israel because only those who have believed are true descendants of Abraham. Only the true descendants of Abraham are of the true Israel ("spiritual" Israel).

[david]

Look at the parallels between "new covenant" promised to Israel in Jeremiah 31 and "new covenant" for us as written in 2 Corinthians 3:

bold to bold
underline to unde​rline

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jeremiah 31:31-33



Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:1-18

[episkopos]

The world doesn't know nor partake of the new covenant. Most believers know of but don't partake of the new covenant. It is just too far and too radical to contemplate. A shallow Christianity does not go far enough to partake of the reality of the new covenant.

[fewarechosen]

First it depends on what you mean by christian. If you mean someone who just follows Christ then no, But if you mean the 144k that are sealed then yes.

The saints are Isreal, the kingdom is within.

It is his promise to his chosen, when he chooses there is no more greek nor jew male nor female you are grafted into ONE body.

that one body is to who the promise is made, his bride the elect lady.

those who have the Holy Sprit have life those who do not are dead. knock and HE shall answer.

the new covenant IS the Holy Spirit, it enters you and sets up an abode, thats why its not the old letter of the law its now written in your mind and fleshy tablets of your heart. so when they are talking about new covenant they are speaking of the Holy Spirit entering you.

Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25These things have I spoken unto you, beingyetpresent with you.
Joh 14:26But the Comforter,which isthe Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

this above is that very covenant, the Holy Ghost which enters you and HE teaches you all things and brings things into rememberance.

2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


above - the spirit that gives life is the Holy Spirit


Luk 11:13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shallyourheavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

he gives you the Holy Spirit which is the new covenant written in your heart. when the Holy Spirit enters you its the same that flows through Christ and through the rest of the Saints thats why it is one body which you are grafted into. that is why when one member suffers all suffer for all his saints are one.

many more than 144k think they are part of 144k

[John146]

I'm not saying "has to be," I'm saying if you happen to be part of Israel through the flesh and you have faith, then you're part of "spiritual Israel."

What is the requirement(s) for being part of the spiritual Israel? Faith in Christ, right? And what is the requirement for being a spiritual seed of Abraham? Faith in Christ (Gal 3:26-29). So, can you explain why you are trying to make a distinction between the spiritual seed of Abraham and spiritual Israel? Anyone who is a spiritual descendant of Abraham is part of the spiritual Israel.

In Romans 9:6-8 Paul is saying that they're not all of Israel because only those who have believed are true descendants of Abraham. Only the true descendants of Abraham are of the true Israel ("spiritual" Israel).

And that would include Gentile believers, right?

[John146]

Look at the parallels between "new covenant" promised to Israel in Jeremiah 31 and "new covenant" for us as written in 2 Corinthians 3:

bold to bold
underline to unde​rline

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jeremiah 31:31-33



Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:1-18

Good post. Well done. Passages like these make it clear that the new covenant is meant for all of God's people, whether they are ethnically Jew or Gentile. This passage also shows the true meaning of God writing His law on our hearts.

[LookingUp]

What is the requirement(s) for being part of the spiritual Israel? Faith in Christ, right?

Well, that depends on the time period in which you were born. In essence, it’s faith in God’s message that’s required. There was a “spiritual” Israel before Christ was on the scene (in human form). It’s more accurately called “remnant” Israel. “Spiritual” Israel is not in Scripture, is it?

And what is the requirement for being a spiritual seed of Abraham? Faith in Christ (Gal 3:26-29).

Yep, the exact same requirement. Believe God’s message.

So, can you explain why you are trying to make a distinction between the spiritual seed of Abraham and spiritual Israel? Anyone who is a spiritual descendant of Abraham is part of the spiritual Israel.

I disagree. Anyone who is a spiritual descendant of Abraham is part of the children of promise. That doesn’t mean you’re part of Israel/Jacob. That means you’re part of Abraham. Isaac came before Israel. We’re like him—a child of promise.

What distinguishes a person as being a part of Israel at all is technically circumcision (well, in Paul’s day anyway). The circumcision of the flesh is simply a sign that you are a member of Israel. That’s it. So what’s the advantage of that? Paul writes, “Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God” (Rom. 3:1).

And that would include Gentile believers, right?

They’re included in the promises made to Abraham through faith like Abraham’s.

[John146]

Well, that depends on the time period in which you were born. In essence, it’s faith in God’s message that’s required. There was a “spiritual” Israel before Christ was on the scene (in human form).

Right, I agree. That's really what I meant. Of course, today, we have to put our faith in Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior but before He came they didn't know exactly who the Messiah would be yet even though they knew some things about Him and they looked forward to His coming.

It’s more accurately called “remnant” Israel. “Spiritual” Israel is not in Scripture, is it?

Yes, it is. Very clearly, IMO. The concept of a spiritual Israel is there in Romans 9:6-8 even though Paul doesn't specifically call it that. There is nothing physical required to be part of the the Israel of which not all natural Israel is part so why wouldn't "spiritual Israel" be an appropriate way of referring to that Israel?

Yep, the exact same requirement. Believe God’s message.

Okay, so, since the requirements for being a spiritual seed of Abraham and being part of the spiritual Israel are the same then why make a distinction between who are the spiritual seed of Abraham and who are part of the spiritual Israel?

I disagree. Anyone who is a spiritual descendant of Abraham is part of the children of promise. That doesn’t mean you’re part of Israel/Jacob. That means you’re part of Abraham. Isaac came before Israel. We’re like him—a child of promise.

I think you are not seeing what Paul taught in Romans 9:6-8. Do you think verses 7 and 8 do not relate directly to verse 6? I'm going to quote the passage and then color what I believe to be references to spiritual Israel in red and the references to natural Israel in blue.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Throughout this passage Paul is contrasting spiritual Israel and natural Israel. To be part of spiritual Israel means you are called in or through Isaac (see Gal 4:26), that you are a child of God and a child of the promise. To be part of natural Israel merely requires being a natural descendant of Abraham.

What distinguishes a person as being a part of Israel at all is technically circumcision (well, in Paul’s day anyway).

Not a part of spiritual Israel. Is that what you're trying to say? Scripture never teaches that.

The circumcision of the flesh is simply a sign that you are a member of Israel.

Natural Israel, not spiritual Israel. To be part of spiritual Israel and to be a spiritual Jew does not require physical circumcision. Look at what Paul taught here:

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Being a spiritual Jew requires the circumcision of the heart, not of the flesh. All believers are spiritual Jews since we all have had our hearts circumcised. As Paul said in Galatians 4:26, "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.". All believers are citizens of the "Jerusalem which is above" (heavenly Jerusalem) so that means all believers are spiritual/heavenly Jews. And we are all part of spiritual Israel and we are all the spiritual seed of Abraham.

[percho]

Well let's see, It was to Abraham and his seed the promises were made not as in seeds plural but seed singular and that seed is Christ. Therefore I would say one would have to be Christ's in order to receive any promise made by God. Now to my limited knowledge of the word of God I don't think Abraham has yet to receive the promises. And if we are Christ's then we are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise being heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. When is Abraham and we going to inherit what he and we are heirs of?

[david]

Well let's see, It was to Abraham and his seed the promises were made not as in seeds plural but seed singular and that seed is Christ. Therefore I would say one would have to be Christ's in order to receive any promise made by God. Now to my limited knowledge of the word of God I don't think Abraham has yet to receive the promises. And if we are Christ's then we are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise being heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. When is Abraham and we going to inherit what he and we are heirs of?

One thing I do know, is that we cannot inherit it unless we do these things first.
"Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. Colossians 3:23-24 "
"For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous ( that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Ephesians 5:5 "
"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5 "