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Thread: The Throne of David

  1. #31
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    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryShugart View Post
    The point is that the kingdom which relates to David's throne is an earthly one since the verse says that Solomon's kingdom "was established greatly."

    "Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki.2:12).

    Do you deny that the kingdom which relates to David's throne is an earthly one?



    The Lord Jesus made it known that when the kingdom comes to earth then God's will will be done on earth as it is in heaven:

    "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:9-10).

    Are we supposed to believe that God's will is being done on earth now despte the fact that Paul calls the world "evil"?:

    "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father" (Gal.1:4).

    Are you willing to argue that God's will is being done on the earth now as it is in heaven?


    If He is already sitting upon His throne then why would He say that when He comes THEN He will sit upon His throne?:

    "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).

    If He is already ruling then why would He say that when He comes in His glory THEN shall He sit upon the throne of His glory?



    Of course the the literal kingdom was not in their midst but in a figurative sense He could say that the Kingdom was in their midst because the King Himself was there. But again, the kingdom of which relates to David's throne was an earthly one and we both know that God's will is not being done on earth as it is in heaven.:

    "Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2:12).


    Of course there is no way around that. Since the Lord Jesus was put to death it was entirely necessary for Him to be resurrected if He was ever going to rule from David's throne.


    This does not mean that there will be no "drink" in the kingdom. Here we read that His Apostles are told that they will "eat and drink" at His table in the kingdom, and at the Last Supper He told them that that will not happen until the kingdom of God shall come:

    "And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come" (Lk. 22: 17, 18).

    If the kingdom is now in place then we would expect to see the Twelve Apostles eating and drinking with the Lord Jesus at His table. But it is clear that this is not now happening.

    We also know that the Lord Jesus will reign in Mount Zion and Jerusalem on the earth:

    "Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously" (Isa.24:23).

    When He will be reigning on the earth His saints will reign with Him:

    "And hast made us unto our God a kingdom of priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Rev.5:10).

    Since the Christian will reign with Him then it is certain that His reign must be on the earth. That is why we read the following:

    "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem" (Jer.3:17).
    You seem to always be bringing up verses from Jeremiah and from the books of I and 2 Kings...
    You seem to have no idea that all these were prophecies being made about the BABYLONIAN EXILE. They have already happened. Already past!

    And yes, Solomon DID sit on the throne of David. You are right. He inherited the throne from his father, David. And yes, he literally did SIT on that same throne.

    But...that throne and even the great temple that Solomon built was DESTROYED along with ALL of Jerusalem between 66AD and 70AD! You don't seem to be able to separate things that have ALREADY happened from those yet to come.

    In ALL the scriptures that you have offered showing where Jesus said he will sit on a 'throne', it shows clearly and plainly that he is to sit on his own throne of glory! Not on 'the throne of DAVID.' Christ Jesus was born through the line of David....that's it. And, his kingdom is everlasting, a kingdom with no end!

    You really need to study which PROPHECIES have already come to pass and which have yet to be fulfilled. You are confusing them.

    And, I must tell you, that it seems like a dangerous doctrine to proclaim that Christ is NOT already ruling and reigning! Because he is!

    JerryShubert, are you involved in a church? If you are, it seems you should discuss some of your beliefs with your pastor. Like your belief that Christ Jesus is not yet ruling and reigning, but will some day he will, 'from the very throne of David.'
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  2. #32

    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    You seem to always be bringing up verses from Jeremiah and from the books of I and 2 Kings...
    You seem to have no idea that all these were prophecies being made about the BABYLONIAN EXILE. They have already happened. Already past!

    And yes, Solomon DID sit on the throne of David. You are right. He inherited the throne from his father, David. And yes, he literally did SIT on that same throne.

    But...that throne and even the great temple that Solomon built was DESTROYED along with ALL of Jerusalem between 66AD and 70AD! You don't seem to be able to separate things that have ALREADY happened from those yet to come.

    In ALL the scriptures that you have offered showing where Jesus said he will sit on a 'throne', it shows clearly and plainly that he is to sit on his own throne of glory! Not on 'the throne of DAVID.' Christ Jesus was born through the line of David....that's it. And, his kingdom is everlasting, a kingdom with no end!

    You really need to study which PROPHECIES have already come to pass and which have yet to be fulfilled. You are confusing them.

    And, I must tell you, that it seems like a dangerous doctrine to proclaim that Christ is NOT already ruling and reigning! Because he is!

    JerryShubert, are you involved in a church? If you are, it seems you should discuss some of your beliefs with your pastor. Like your belief that Christ Jesus is not yet ruling and reigning, but will some day he will, 'from the very throne of David.'
    Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    This has not happened yet.

  3. #33
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    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    In ALL the scriptures that you have offered showing where Jesus said he will sit on a 'throne', it shows clearly and plainly that he is to sit on his own throne of glory! Not on 'the throne of DAVID.'
    You are wromg bacause Gabriel told Mary:

    "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father, David. And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end" (Lk.1:32,33).

    And, I must tell you, that it seems like a dangerous doctrine to proclaim that Christ is NOT already ruling and reigning! Because he is!
    From the following words of the lord Jesus we can know exactly what the earth will be like when the kingdom comes to the earth:

    "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:9-10).

    When the kingdom comes to earth then God's "will" will be done on the earth as it is done in heaven. Are we supposed to believe that God's will is being done on earth now as it is in heaven despite the fact that Paul calls the world "evil"?:

    "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father" (Gal.1:4).

  4. #34
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    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryShugart View Post
    The point is that the kingdom which relates to David's throne is an earthly one since the verse says that Solomon's kingdom "was established greatly."

    "Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki.2:12).

    Do you deny that the kingdom which relates to David's throne is an earthly one?
    In terms of Christ inheriting the throne of David, yes. Christ Himself said that His kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36) but you want it to be a worldly/earthly kingdom.

    The Lord Jesus made it known that when the kingdom comes to earth then God's will will be done on earth as it is in heaven:

    "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:9-10).
    Does anyone sin or die in heaven? No, right? So, why would there be sin and death when the Father's kingdom comes? Yes, His kingdom will come to the earth, but only after the earth has been burned up and renewed, resulting in the new earth where "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Rev 21:4).

    Are we supposed to believe that God's will is being done on earth now despte the fact that Paul calls the world "evil"?:

    "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father" (Gal.1:4).

    Are you willing to argue that God's will is being done on the earth now as it is in heaven?
    I never said that and won't say it now. Why pray for that if it's already being done? But you are mistaken in your understanding of the Father's kingdom. Christ will deliver the kingdom to the Father at His coming (1 Cor 15:23-24) and at that point, wickedness will have been done away with completely:

    Matt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    See, you have believers inheriting the kingdom of Matt 13:43 but don't have wickedness being completely removed at that point. You believe sin and death will continue on at that point. But that's not so. Verse 41 shows that at the end of the age, which is when Christ will return, He will have all things that offend and all of the wicked removed from the presence of His kingdom and cast into the fire and He will then deliver the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:23-24). The time when the wicked are cast into the fire is after the thousand years (Rev 20:15). There will be no sin or death from that point on.

    If He is already sitting upon His throne then why would He say that when He comes THEN He will sit upon His throne?:

    "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).

    If He is already ruling then why would He say that when He comes in His glory THEN shall He sit upon the throne of His glory?
    It's not saying that is the time when He will first begin to reign, it's speaking of the time when He will begin to judge. He'll have already been reigning before that, but will have not yet judged the world until then.

    Of course the the literal kingdom was not in their midst but in a figurative sense He could say that the Kingdom was in their midst because the King Himself was there. But again, the kingdom of which relates to David's throne was an earthly one
    Originally, David's kingdom was an earthly one but he was an earthly king. In another sense he was also the king of God's people in a spiritual sense. That is the sense in which Jesus will inherit David's throne. Jesus is not an earthly king. So, why would His kingdom be earthly? He said His kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36), but you are trying to say otherwise.

    Of course there is no way around that. Since the Lord Jesus was put to death it was entirely necessary for Him to be resurrected if He was ever going to rule from David's throne.
    But Peter related Him being raised from the dead directly with Him being raised to David's throne. In other words, Peter indicated that He was raised to David's throne upon being raised from the dead. That's what it says in Acts 2:29-36.

    This does not mean that there will be no "drink" in the kingdom. Here we read that His Apostles are told that they will "eat and drink" at His table in the kingdom, and at the Last Supper He told them that that will not happen until the kingdom of God shall come:
    Right, but my point is that whenever we talk about the kingdom of God we need to clarify exactly what we are referring to and in what context because in a spiritual sense we are already in the kingdom of God, even though we still await the time when it is fully manifested on the new earth.

  5. #35
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    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    It's figurative language referring to the fact that Solomon took his place as king, succeeding his father. If that is speaking of a literal, physical throne then where is it now and why would Jesus want to sit upon it when He returns, seeing as by now it would be really old and dusty and dilapidated, if it even would still exist today after all this time? A literal physical throne like that would be not be fit for Him.
    You seriously don't think he means the exact same throne, as in chair do you? I read someone else wrote the same thing, I was thinking I was a joke but now again I read it here.

    David's throne is an office, a position, over a specified people and place, not a literal chair. I would assume that He would indeed have a seat to sit upon, I would expect it to be new and fitting of Him, not the same exact one David sat upon.
    Mark


    “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

    (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

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    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
    You seriously don't think he means the exact same throne, as in chair do you? I read someone else wrote the same thing, I was thinking I was a joke but now again I read it here.

    David's throne is an office, a position, over a specified people and place, not a literal chair. I would assume that He would indeed have a seat to sit upon, I would expect it to be new and fitting of Him, not the same exact one David sat upon.
    Amen. David's throne was for the 'ruler' of God's people. Jesus is now on His throne as the ruler of God's people. Hallelujah!

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    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
    You seriously don't think he means the exact same throne, as in chair do you? I read someone else wrote the same thing, I was thinking I was a joke but now again I read it here.

    David's throne is an office, a position, over a specified people and place, not a literal chair. I would assume that He would indeed have a seat to sit upon, I would expect it to be new and fitting of Him, not the same exact one David sat upon.
    Yes, Jerry Shugart has been arguing this whole time that Jesus will sit in the very same seat (throne) that King David and Solomon sat on. But, that chair was destroyed long, long ago!

    You are right...David's throne is the office, position, the one ruling. NOT the 'chair' he actually sat on.
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  8. #38

    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryShugart View Post
    Here we can see that the Lord Jesus will sit upon the Throne of David. Gabriel told Mary:

    "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father, David. And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end"
    (Lk. 1: 32, 33).



    This Throne is an "earthly" throne:

    "Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly"
    (1 Ki. 2: 12).


    There are some people on this forum who say that the Lord Jesus is now sitting upon His throne in heaven right now. But they are wrong because the Scriptures reveal that at the present time He is sitting upon His Father's throne and not His own throne:

    "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne"
    (Rev.3:21).


    The Lord Jesus will not sit upon His own throne until He returns to earth.

  9. #39

    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryShugart View Post
    Here we can see that the Lord Jesus will sit upon the Throne of David. Gabriel told Mary:

    "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father, David. And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end"
    (Lk. 1: 32, 33).


    This Throne is an "earthly" throne:

    "Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly"
    (1 Ki. 2: 12).


    There are some people on this forum who say that the Lord Jesus is now sitting upon His throne in heaven right now. But they are wrong because the Scriptures reveal that at the present time He is sitting upon His Father's throne and not His own throne:

    "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne"
    (Rev.3:21).


    The Lord Jesus will not sit upon His own throne until He returns to earth.
    Actually, you are very correct here. Christ will take the throne (not the literal chair, but the continuation of the office that has existed and will exist until His return) of David at His return.

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    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Christ Himself said that His kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36) but you want it to be a worldly/earthly kingdom.
    You should quote the entire verse because what the Lord Jesus said does not mean that it never will, as evidenced by what He said later:

    "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (Jn.18:36).

    But "now" the kingdom is not of the world.

    On another thread I said the following to you:

    The Apostles were with the Lord Jesus after His resurrection when He spoke of the things concerning the kingdom:

    "To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God"(Acts 1:6)

    So if anyone could be considered an expert on the kingdom it was them and they believed that the Lord would "restore" the kingdom to Israel: 

    "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again (apokathistēmi) the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).

    This Greek word apokathistēmi means "to restore to its former state, to be in its former state" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    Since the kingdom of which the Apostles spoke was originally an "earthly" kingdom then when it will be resored it will once again be an "earthly" kingdom.

    To this you said:

    Jesus indicated that He wasn't going to tell them exactly when it would occur but they would know the time of the kingdom being restored to Israel (and being expanded to the whole world) when they received the Holy Spirit and the power of the Holy Spirit in them so that they could take the gospel and advance His kingdom to the whole world, starting in Israel.
    So now you admit that a kingdom will be restored to Israel? And what other kingdom can that be but the one that is in regard to the throne of David?:

    "Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2: 12).

    Surely you will not deny that the "throne of David" spoken of in this verse relates to the "kingdom" which was established greatly, would you?

    Of course that is the kingdom which the Apostles thought would be restored to Israel. Do you now see the truth that the throne of David relates to an earthly kingdom where the Lord Jesus will reign?

  11. #41
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    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
    You seriously don't think he means the exact same throne, as in chair do you?
    I don't, but that is how Jerry is coming across. That appears to be what he believes.

    David's throne is an office, a position, over a specified people and place, not a literal chair.
    Of course.

    I would assume that He would indeed have a seat to sit upon, I would expect it to be new and fitting of Him, not the same exact one David sat upon.
    But there are those who believe that He will be literally sitting on the same literal physical throne that David (supposedly) sat on. Except that it's entirely possible that King David didn't even have a literal physical throne.

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    Re: The Throne of David

    Jerry, do you believe that when Yeshua returns all believers will be all piled up in Jerusalem?

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    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by John 8:32 View Post
    Actually, you are very correct here. Christ will take the throne (not the literal chair, but the continuation of the office that has existed and will exist until His return) of David at His return.
    Acts 2:29-36 says that Christ already was raised to David's throne by way of His resurrection.

    Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Notice that it says God swore an oath to David that "he would raise up Christ to sit on his (David's) throne". What did Peter say that is speaking about immediately after that? He said "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ". Can you see how Peter related the raising of Christ from the dead directly to the raising of Christ to David's throne? Christ is already on David's throne at the right hand of the Father. It is only because people mistakenly think that David's throne has to be an earthly throne that they can't accept what Peter taught in Acts 2:29-36.

  14. #44
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    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryShugart View Post
    You should quote the entire verse because what the Lord Jesus said does not mean that it never will, as evidenced by what He said later:

    "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (Jn.18:36).

    But "now" the kingdom is not of the world.
    If it isn't of the world now, why would it ever be? For it to be not "of the world" means that it is a spiritual kingdom and not a worldly kingdom. We (believers) too are not of this world, right? Yet we are on the earth. So, for His kingdom to not be of this world is not to say it is not on the earth. Will we ever be of this world, Jerry? No, right? So, why would Christ's kingdom ever be of this world? The wicked are "of this world", not the righteous. The righteous will never be "of this world" and neither will Christ's kingdom. Again, being "of the world" is not equivalent to being on the earth. That's not what it means for Christ's kingdom to not be "of this world". I know I'm being kind of repetitive here, but I believe you need to understand this. His kingdom is on the earth now because it's in us. But it's not carnal and worldly. It's heavenly and spiritual and always will be. Christ isn't going to have two kingdoms, one spiritual and one of the world. Scripture never teaches such a thing. His kingdom is His kingdom. He only has one.

    On another thread I said the following to you:

    The Apostles were with the Lord Jesus after His resurrection when He spoke of the things concerning the kingdom:

    "To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God"(Acts 1:6)

    So if anyone could be considered an expert on the kingdom it was them and they believed that the Lord would "restore" the kingdom to Israel: 

    "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again (apokathistēmi) the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).

    This Greek word apokathistēmi means "to restore to its former state, to be in its former state" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    Since the kingdom of which the Apostles spoke was originally an "earthly" kingdom then when it will be resored it will once again be an "earthly" kingdom.

    To this you said:



    So now you admit that a kingdom will be restored to Israel? And what other kingdom can that be but the one that is in regard to the throne of David?:

    "Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2: 12).

    Surely you will not deny that the "throne of David" spoken of in this verse relates to the "kingdom" which was established greatly, would you?

    Of course that is the kingdom which the Apostles thought would be restored to Israel. Do you now see the truth that the throne of David relates to an earthly kingdom where the Lord Jesus will reign?
    What are you trying to do, have the same exact conversation in two different threads? I already answered this in the other thread.

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    Re: The Throne of David

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Jerry, do you believe that when Yeshua returns all believers will be all piled up in Jerusalem?
    Of course not!

    What did I ever say that would lead you to ask such a question?

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