SIGNS..SIGNS!..SIGNS?

[Redeemed by Grace]

From dictionary.com: Belief is confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof.

LOL... Is dictionary.com within the Torah or the Ketuvim? Naw... it's within 1st Hesitations...

All kidding aside... again everyone should know what they believe, why the believe it, and know that it's the truth. Definitions come and go, but the word of God is forever.

[Fenris]

All kidding aside... again everyone should know what they believe, why the believe it, and know that it's the truth. Definitions come and go, but the word of God is forever.

How can you not tell the difference between things you know and things you believe?

Why is this such a difficult topic to grasp?

It's not even a religion issue, it's a basic concepts issue.

[notuptome]

Rose colored glasses make you incapable of understanding the difference between "fact" and "belief"? Ohhhkay...

Splitting hairs??

Doesn't change the fact that Plenty of verses say that God doesn't require sacrifice at all.

Any that do not require obedience?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Redeemed by Grace]

How can you not tell the difference between things you know and things you believe?

Why is this such a difficult topic to grasp?

It's not even a religion issue, it's a basic concepts issue.

I think your frame of reference is not grasping what I'm offering here, or at best case your POV is filtering my comments and misunderstanding what saving faith is all about. You've offer a dictionary look at what belief is, would you care to offer an OT definition as to what faith is? For I'm thinking this is the issue in your seeing me falling off the turnip truck....

[Redeemed by Grace]

I think your frame of reference is not grasping what I'm offering here, or at best case your POV is filtering my comments and misunderstanding what saving faith is all about. You've offer a dictionary look at what belief is, would you care to offer an OT definition as to what faith is? For I'm thinking this is the issue in your seeing me falling off the turnip truck....

Good Morning Fenris...

I've been pondering our recent dialog and taking to heart you not able to follow where my comments are coming from... I think I have another example that might give at least a view to my POV that I have been sharing.

Here goes.

In the USA, it seems that many a mom and dad, tell their young children about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, in a way maybe to share with them the traditions of their youth, and position these charming fictional characters as real live 'people' with roles and powers that are super human, and with the help of media and marketing, these 3 to 7 year old's see and believe.

Now why do they believe?

They believe the testimony of their parents in trust. They believe what they see in the movies in the Shopping malls. They believe because it's what everyone around them are saying is true. So... they all believe... And they believe based on their trust with what they know of mom and dad and TV, and what they see and experience. That is real to them. But is that truth to them? I submit to a five year old, truth is relative, so yepper, Santa is real.

However... do all 5 year old's continue to believe in Santa when they are 12? Now to my point. Why? Becuase they are searching and testing for themselves...

What was once true and never questioned as a five year old comes into question when they become 8 or 10 or 12. Each child will get to a point to see that what mom and dad once stated as real, and visible and touchable, becoming not so real. Their belief in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, has changed.

I submit that EVERY born again believer in Jesus Christ has had to change their view from what tradition or their taught past beliefs known to them as truth of the time prior to being 'saved', to the immovable, unwavering truth of saving faith within the bible. I also submit that for EVERY Jew need to do the same... for which if every Hebrew were to clear his mind of his taught faith and traditions and see the Tanakh for themselves in searching without Jewish predispositions of Jewishness, all would see Jesus as their Messiah as do born again Christians. The Early church was filled with completed Jews being taught by the Apostles as they turned synagogs into synagog-churches, for their eyes saw the truth of the Tanakh as showing it was all about Jesus, through the testimony of the eye witnesses of the Apostles.

True faith is true knowledge.

Hebrew 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. John 20:29 Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

And both faith and knowledge are given by God testified by His Spirit, confirmed through His word.

[Fenris]

Splitting hairs??

Saying there's a difference between "fact" and "belief" is splitting hairs?

Any that do not require obedience?

Some only require good deeds or a contrite heart. Weird, huh?

[Fenris]

I submit that EVERY born again believer in Jesus Christ has had to change their view from what tradition or their taught past beliefs known to them as truth of the time prior to being 'saved', to the immovable, unwavering truth of saving faith within the bible.

But it isn't truth. It may be something that you believe to be true, but that isn't the same thing at all.

[Redeemed by Grace]

But it isn't truth. It may be something that you believe to be true, but that isn't the same thing at all.

Then IMHO, you've built for yourself a little paradox. Does truth need to be confirmed or agreed to to be true? Or does truth stand alone? Does man declare what is truth? Naw, man can only agree or confirm. Of all things every written or would be written nothing is given as truth, except one compilation of books and letters............................., and you have that one thing in your hand that stands alone as truth... That is, the holy bible, and for you, the OT portion is good enough to show you Jesus as the Christ, your Messiah. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't change the truth for what it declares... Jesus is the Son of God, the Creator of the universe, The Messiah... and yes -- He is God.

What stands in your way is your current understandings based on history and of traditions. If you say that the OT has error, you lack understanding. If you say it does not have error, you then still are viewing from tinted glasses for it were clear, you would see that Jesus as the standard of truth. In Jesus' day, the NT wasn't written yet so the standard of teaching that Jesus was the Messiah came from the same scriptures you have today! Because you cannot see Jesus within the OT, you judge truth to be relative, thus saying faith is relative.

So I submit that true saving faith is given by God to all who believe on His Son, that by His Spirit within the believer, testifies and confirms that true in assurance and is the only faith that is true and eternal.

[Fenris]

Then IMHO, you've built for yourself a little paradox.

No, I haven't.

You are still not understanding basic concepts here.

"Belief" is something without empirical proof.

We "believe" that God exists. We can't see Him. We can't touch Him. We can't prove to someone who doesn't believe that He does, in fact, exist. That's why it's a "belief". Get it?

What stands in your way is your current understandings based on history and of traditions.

Couldn't I say the same of you? In fact, couldn't a person of any religion say it of anyone of another religion? Why, yes.

If you say it does not have error, you then still are viewing from tinted glasses for it were clear, you would see that Jesus as the standard of truth.

If it were "fact" that Jesus is God, you would be able to prove it to me. But you can't. Because it something you believe. Get it?

[Fenris]

I think you're confusing "believe in very strongly" with "know". The two are not the same.

[keck553]

I think you're confusing "believe in very strongly" with "know". The two are not the same.

hmm...I think there is a point here that is being missed. What has brought some of us Christians to the point were we feel we need empherical proof to our faith? It reminds me of the Abraham/Lazarus story where Lazarus begged Abraham to give proof to his brothers to save them for the torment he was enduring. True compassion for sure, but what was Abraham's response? No! Empherical proof (resurrection of the dead) is worthless, if Lazarus' brothers didn't believe Moshe, then all the proof shoved in their faces would not convince them.

Fenris is correct in this way - Faith/belief is the standard-bearer. As it is written, faith comes by hearing (Shema) the Word of God. It isn't written "proof comes by....." for a reason.

Another writer said this - "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." Ironically, the author of this writing brought something to light that I think we all could agree on. I saw a video once taken during a WWII concentration camp liberation. All the Jews gathered, starving, hurting, really sad examples of human beings weakened by their condition - they all gathered and sang HaTikvah (The hope). What was their hope in 1945? A substance hoped for (nation of Israel), the evidence (the surviving Jews who held on to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who obeyed the Torah given to them the best they knew how and kept thier identity in the face of horrific torture and hardship) and the thing unseen - a Jewish homeland. And what is wrong with that faith? Is not our hope simular?

IMHO, faith does not require empherical proof. Our (Christian) message need not be twisted into some pressing search for proof. We are instructed to be ready with answers, but I don't recall any instructions to respond to "prove it." Sometimes I wonder if we're trying to prove something to ourselves......no...let's remain steadfast in our faith and call it what it truely is and stand on that.

[Redeemed by Grace]

No, I haven't.

You are still not understanding basic concepts here.

I am... I'm like a man at the rock concert seeing you 20 rows down and you turn towards me, and I'm yelling... get out of the way the stage is falling toward you from your blind spot... but you see me as yelling to the songs and nodding to the music that all is well.

"Belief" is something without empirical proof.

Not true at all. I believe that there are winds and I can see proof to that in the evidences it leaves behind... yet I can't see or touch the wind...it touches me.

We "believe" that God exists. We can't see Him. We can't touch Him. We can't prove to someone who doesn't believe that He does, in fact, exist. That's why it's a "belief". Get it?

When you say we, I take that you want it to mean you and I: and I would say yes I know He is.

BUT. I can see Him, I can be touched by Him... I see His Son being described by Isaiah, Ezekiel and John in clothing and position, and see the whole bible showing me His character and attributes. That His Spirit lives in me and effects my thinking and my actions. So my belief is real... yours as you are saying is not. Living faith. Real faith. Life-changing faith. Christ Centered faith. You are asking me to get it.... In kind - Humbly..... I'm asking you to get it as well.... for He will change your life once you see Christ.

Couldn't I say the same of you? In fact, couldn't a person of any religion say it of anyone of another religion? Why, yes.

You could indeed... But truth doesn't need to be voted on, only obeyed... The truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Jewish Messiah requiring a response. Either you believe and have fellowship with God through His Son, or you reject Him and die in judgement. As Paul declared in Romans 9: I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren [to be able to believe and be saved], my kinsmen, according to the flesh..... and Paul continues.... even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea,

"I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
"AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."
And just as Isaiah foretold,
"UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written,

"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

If it were "fact" that Jesus is God, you would be able to prove it to me. But you can't. Because it something you believe. Get it?

Really I do understand what you are saying. I really don't have to prove it; you have to believe it... and in belief you will find truth and proof.


Lastly Paul continues:

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
"THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."
19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
"I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION,
BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU."
20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,
"I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."
21 But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."


My friend, it's not too late for today, for tomorrow it might be...
Luke 19:9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

[Fenris]

Not true at all. I believe that there are winds and I can see proof to that in the evidences it leaves behind... yet I can't see or touch the wind...it touches me.

You don't understand the concept of "proof" at all.

Wind can be proven to exist. It can be measured. It can be quantified.

God can not be proven to exist. He cannot be measured. He cannot be quantified.

Go take a college level math or science class that covers the concept of scientific method or abstract proof. Because you obviously have no idea what they are.

I'm getting tired of having to say this over and over.

[keck553]

Not true at all. I believe that there are winds and I can see proof to that in the evidences it leaves behind... yet I can't see or touch the wind...it touches me.

To be fair this is not a valid argument. There is empherical science why we 'feel' wind. Some of what we feel are particle impacts. But most of what we feel is pressure change (simular to the pressure changes to a airplane wing). It's only unseen because our eyes are not designed to perceive loosly associated molecules in a gaseous state, anymore than they are designed to perceive radio waves or infrared. However, we can see wind in it's natural state when the compression is great enough to optically perceive - a sonic boom is basically compressed air - wind - and we can see it. Instrumentation can compensate for that, and wind can be easily proven - even made visual and optically studied to great extent.

[Redeemed by Grace]

You don't understand the concept of "proof" at all.

Wind can be proven to exist. It can be measured. It can be quantified.

God can not be proven to exist. He cannot be measured. He cannot be quantified.

Go take a college level math or science class that covers the concept of scientific method or abstract proof. Because you obviously have no idea what they are.

I'm getting tired of having to say this over and over.

Our discussion is not about wind, is it?


It's about biblical faith. And your reply is spot on and very constant as to my point against your stance.... Go take a college class... go get trained.... learn from the community of scientist, for they hold truth as to what is real... That this group stated that the earth was flat, that the earth revolves around the sun, that the universe is billion of years old.... that man came from apes..... My point is go to the bible and leave your training in the closet.... Let God teach you without predispositions...


And to the wind, yep I'm not a weather man nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn Express, just some buffo who likes to watch the clouds. But my purpose was to illustrate using the wind as an analogy towards faith...

John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Funny how when scripture is given both from the OT and NT, the refutes are deafeningly silent.

And if you are getting tired of talking, then just stop... I have no problem with that, for I know that it won't come together over night.