My Kingdom is not of this world.

[be sure]

When it comes to the Millennial kingdom, it is both. The Millennial kingdom will be a tangible kingdom upon the earth. But that does not negate that the hearts will still be required to choose. None will enter but those who have already chosen, and any born will most certainly be required to chose to, or not to, place their faith in God.

Israel was to be a kingdom of God upon the earth, a witness to the Gentile nations. At present, the Church is that witness upon the earth. Both Israel, when obedient, and the Church, also when obedient, the former was to have been, and the latter is to be now, a witness of the true and living God. Israel was a nation as a whole, but the individual's still had to choose. Just like the Church is a whole, but in order to be part of that Church, the individual must choose. Israel was an earthly kingdom, the Church a heavenly one, but both,(the former now in disobedience though and not the witness..or) part of the kingdom of God.

But when it comes to the earthly Israel, God had a purpose, it was not fulfilled. God will not leave that purpose unfulfilled, it is that simple. The Church, not being an earthly kingdom, cannot therefore fulfill God's purpose for an earthly kingdom, that is something Israel was to do, and under the ruler ship of the King, Jesus, she will.

Yes, that would partly summarize a Dispensational view. Not all of us agree that to be scriptural.

[dan]

Yes, ive read that...of course.
Have you read this first verse?...,

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

How then, can the New Jerusalem be descending to this old earth?

Of course. I guess that I assume that the "new" earth is just the old earth without a sea and a few other things. Just as you assume that the "new" earth is a totally different place.

[John146]

Danliel and Daniel 7 is about the kingdom on earth ruled by man, then and future.

I'm not talking about that kingdom, I'm talking about God's kingdom which Christ rules over right now. The kingdom that is not of this world (John 18:36).

It is this kingdom that is given to the saints and remains forever v18, v27. I don't think you believe the kingdom of the last king/beast is Christ's kingdom, do you? The kingdom right now is not Christ's kingdom is it? It is a future event that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ, right? You say "Christ's kingdom" but I wonder what you mean by that, because scripture teaches (shown earlier in the thread) that Christ's kingdom now is not what it will be then. The kingdom of God is mentioned in v27, "of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom", which is not to be confused with the kingdom mentioned previously in the chapter and verse.

I'm not really following you. We are spiritually in Christ's kingdom right now. Just as we are not of this world, though we are in the world, Christ's kingdom is not of this world even though it is in the world. He is not a King without a kingdom.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

At Christ's coming at the end of the age He will have His angels remove all of the wicked and all wickedness away from the presence of His kingdom and He will deliver the kingdom in its fullness to the Father and then the kingdom will go on forever in the new heavens and new earth.

Matt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[John146]

And it says He is going to His Fathers house, not just to His Fathers kingdom. The house would be within the kingdom of heaven, which is within the kingdom of God.

The kingdom of heaven is not within the kingdom of God. Scripture never teaches that. The kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of God. They are the same kingdom. Look at how those terms are used interchangeably in scripture:

Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Did Jesus speak of two different kingdoms in Matt 19:23-24? Was Jesus speaking of a different kingdom in Matt 4:17 than He spoke about in Mark 1:14? Clearly not. To differentiate between the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God is not biblical. They are the same kingdom. It's just two different ways of referring to the same one kingdom.

[John146]

Is the kingdom about governments, courts, money systems, nations, cultures, societies, practices, customs, etc.? Is it a tangible, visible kindgom ruled by Jesus in the physical midst of His people?

Or is the kingdom about Him making His heavenly abode within the hearts of believers by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and being in the spiritual midst of His people while they're still on the earth?

If the kingdom is to be eternal, it would surely be the latter.

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son." (Col. 1:13)

I agree.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

[quiet dove]

The kingdom of heaven is not within the kingdom of God. Scripture never teaches that. The kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of God. They are the same kingdom. Look at how those terms are used interchangeably in scripture:

Then whos kingdom would it be? And I know the terms are used interchangeably, but still, any where and every where that the will of God is done is God's kingdom. Why would we consider God with an either or, like He is in some way limited.

Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Did Jesus speak of two different kingdoms in Matt 19:23-24? Was Jesus speaking of a different kingdom in Matt 4:17 than He spoke about in Mark 1:14? Clearly not. To differentiate between the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God is not biblical. They are the same kingdom. It's just two different ways of referring to the same one kingdom.

Jesus came teaching about the kingdom of heaven, ok. I did not differentiate. I said that anywhere God's will is done is the kingdom of God, I would think that means heaven.

And the prophets in the OT spoke the prophecies God gave them regarding an earthly kingdom ruled by the promised Messiah. Jesus taught about the kingdom of heaven. He was rejected by Israel, they rejected their Messiah, there would be no fulfillment of the OT prophecies at the time of His first advent...but that does not mean those prophecies went away, or are some how applicable in some spiritual fulfillment toward the Church.

[Noeb]

I'm not talking about that kingdom, I'm talking about God's kingdom which Christ rules over right now. The kingdom that is not of this world (John 18:36).

Oh, right now. That's not in your post here, "The kingdom of God, kingdom of Christ and kingdom of heaven are all one and the same. There is only one kingdom. Scripture never teaches a kingdom within a kingdom concept that you are talking about.", where you said "Scripture never teaches a kingdom within a kingdom". As long as we are clear . Every kingdom/dominion will obey or be cursed according to prophecy. Kings of the earth bring honor to him. Can't do that without kingdoms.

At Christ's coming at the end of the age He will have His angels remove all of the wicked and all wickedness away from the presence of His kingdom and He will deliver the kingdom in its fullness to the Father and then the kingdom will go on forever in the new heavens and new earth.

Matt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

k now you are making assertions not found in the text you are using for support. Matt 13:40 is when Christ returns to reign on earth. Since that continues for a period of time it cannot be used in conjunction with 1 Cor 15:24 which says the end will come when he has executed all rule and authority and finished the course of kingdom of God on earth as God originally intended.

The argument Paul makes is that since Christ rose, all will rise, so how can some say there is no resurrection? The end cannot come until the resurrection. It doesn't say the end comes when the resurrection does. There's more than one, so this should be fairly obvious. After the first resurrection the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years.......

What you propose is impossible. Use all scripture to formulate your conclusion.

[Watchman]

Rather long thread...at least nobody is claiming that the church IS the kingdom!

[Raybob]

Rather long thread...at least nobody is claiming that the church IS the kingdom!

Actually, Paul just about said it that way.

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
(Col 1:12-13)

[jeffweeder]

Actually, Paul just about said it that way.

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
(Col 1:12-13)

Kingdom is all about the Son

[Watchman]

Actually, Paul just about said it that way.

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
(Col 1:12-13)

Hi Raybob,

Long time, no see. Yes, that is what Paul said, but he did not equate the kingdom with the church. A kingdom is a sphere of rule, reign, and dominion. The ekklesia is certainly part of all that is under Christ's rule, but is not all-inclusive. Nature is also under His rule, as are the evil spirits and angels. The church represents His kingdom on earth and advances His kingdom. Does that make sense?

blessings,

Watchman

PS: I know this is a bit tangential and it is not my intent to hijack this thread. Please don't hesitate to move my posts to a new thread if needed!

[Watchman]

Kingdom is all about the Son

Amen, Jeff. He is too often excluded in scriptural discussions, even though the scriptures are His testimony.

[Doulos]

Both John 8:32 and Jerry are way off base, as usual. Christ's kingdom is not of this world in the same sense that we (believers) are not of this world. Our friend Jerry over here would like us to believe that not being of the world means to not be on earth. But does that make any sense? We are not of the world:

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 18 (NASB95)
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Clearly, Jesus was not saying they were not on the earth even as He was not on the earth. So, in what sense were they not of the world? They were not worldly. They did not love the world and its ways but rather God and His ways. Because of that "the world hath hated them". That is what Jesus meant when He said His kingdom is not of this world. It's not a worldly kingdom that operates according to the ways of this evil world. Instead it is a heavenly kingdom that operates according to God's ways. Christ is the King and we are in His kingdom today.

I think what you've said has some merit, but I don't think you can cast away the idea that Jesus' Kingdom is not fully in this world yet either. I think you can liken it to the reign of David. When he was anointed, he was the true king of Israel. But, He did not fully realize that kingship within Israel until after he and his band of followers suffered through exile. So, today, Jesus has a band of followers in the world (but not of the world) but that Kingdom has yet to be fully realized in the world. And it will not be fully realized until the nation of Israel "repents and returns."

Acts 3 (NASB95)
19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Zechariah 12 (NASB95)
10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Zechariah 14 (NASB95)
4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!


Zechariah 14 (NASB95)
9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.

[Raybob]

Hi Raybob,

Long time, no see. Yes, that is what Paul said, but he did not equate the kingdom with the church. A kingdom is a sphere of rule, reign, and dominion. The ekklesia is certainly part of all that is under Christ's rule, but is not all-inclusive. Nature is also under His rule, as are the evil spirits and angels. The church represents His kingdom on earth and advances His kingdom. Does that make sense?

blessings,

Watchman

Jesus told us the kingdom comes without observation, and that is "within" us. The kingdom, as I see it, was set up the day Jesus took His seat in heaven on his throne. Us servants of the kingdom have power from the King, to bind the enemy when he tempts us. That's the power one has when they serve Jesus. What else is the kingdom of God for, if not to defeat the devil in our lives?

[Watchman]

Jesus told us the kingdom comes without observation, and that is "within" us. The kingdom, as I see it, was set up the day Jesus took His seat in heaven on his throne. Us servants of the kingdom have power from the King, to bind the enemy when he tempts us. That's the power one has when they serve Jesus. What else is the kingdom of God for, if not to defeat the devil in our lives?

Good morning, Raybob,

Your question at the end of the post above is a poignant one. Perhaps it could be expanded a bit by asking, 'why are we to defeat evil in our lives?' I believe the kingdom of God is about God. It exists for His pleasure, His purpose, His benefit. He made it available to mankind, a second time, at Pentecost. Adam lost man's access...Christ returned it. But the kingdom is, first, about God. We are beneficiaries of His desires. So, when we avail ourselves of His power to shun evil, we glorify Him. At least, that is my understanding. Your thoughts?