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Thread: My Kingdom is not of this world.

  1. #211
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    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doulos View Post
    I didn't forget, as I've said I am counting on that fact. But, its a matter of how Jesus is expounding on it. The "but" indicates that there is some difference. So, as I've said, while both are the Kingdom of God (same) they are both different manifestations of that kingdom of God (different).
    I disagree. He was not talking about two different kingdoms and contrasting them. The word "but" simply indicates that He was telling them that despite the fact that He wasn't going to tell them the exact time it would happen, He was going to tell them how they would know it was beginning to happen. And the time in which they would know that the kingdom of God was beginning to be restored to Israel (and advance even beyond Israel) was when they would "receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon" them.

  2. #212

    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    We have NT scripture which tells us that the animal sacrifices foreshadowed Christ's sacrifice even if it isn't spelled out in the OT. Is there any NT scripture that tells us that animal sacrifices would be performed in the future in remembrance of Christ's sacrifice?
    Again, if Israel didn't have it why would we need it, especially when it has nothing to do with us?

  3. #213
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    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raybob View Post
    But there is NO difference. EVERY CASE of EVERY verse in the NT that begins with the word "But" is ALWAYS a continuation of, and expounding on the exact same thing as was said in the previous verse. ALWAYS.
    Are you aware of the meaning of "but?" I did post it for you earlier, however you seem to be ignoring it.

    235. ἀλλά allá; an adversative particle originally the neut. pl. of állos (243), other. A particle implying in speech some diversity or superaddition to what preceded. It serves, therefore, to mark opposition, antithesis, or transition. It is less frequent in the Sept. than the NT as there is no corresponding particle in Hebr. In the NT, it means “but” in various modifications:
    Zodhiates, Spiros: The Complete Word Study Dictionary : New Testament. electronic ed. Chattanooga, TN : AMG Publishers, 2000, c1992, c1993, S. G235

    (Bold and italics are mine)

    Just to show you this in action elsewhere I did an Englishman's Concordance look up on this word and pulled out a few examples... (Bold and italics below are mine)

    Matthew 8 (NASB95)
    4 And Jesus said to him, “See that you tell no one; but go, show yourself to the priest and present the offering that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.”

    What's the same: How this man was to proceed
    The Contrast: Not to do / to do

    Matthew 9 (NASB95)
    12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.

    What's the same: Who needs a physician
    The Contrast: not those who are healthy / those who are sick

    Matthew 9 (NASB95)
    17 “Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.”

    What's the same: What to do with new wine
    The Contrast: old wineskins / new wineskins

    Matthew 9 (NASB95)
    18 While He was saying these things to them, a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live.”

    What's the same: Subject of state of life
    The Contrast: dead / alive

    Mark 10 (NASB95)
    27 Looking at them, Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”

    What's the same: How can anyone be saved
    The Contrast: with people impossible / with God not impossible

  4. #214

    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Like I told you before, Jesus said that the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, would not come to dwell in them until after His ascension (see John 16:7). And Jesus also said this about the Comforter/Holy Spirit:

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    This suggests that even though He taught them a lot of things while He was with them He didn't expect them to remember it all or understand it all until He sent the Comforter/Holy Spirit to them after His ascension to heaven. So, this would explain why they would not have fully understood the things He taught them yet as of the time He was speaking to them just before His ascension.
    No, it suggests they would not have remembered all Jesus taught them for the 3.5 years before his ascension to the Father, which was before they received the Spirit and the 40 days he taught them all things. After they received the Holy Ghost he taught them all things. No one can get around this fact. Jesus didn't say feel the Holy Ghost, or receive a blessing of sorts. After the way was made, those he had chosen to have fruit that would remain received the Spirit and he taught them all things. That's what it does in fact say. It does not say, anywhere they did not understand, could not understand, and could not remember what he was telling them for the forty days. It just does not. I would think the least any believer would do is acknowledge this fact. You don't have to agree, just acknowledge they received and he taught because it says so, and acknowledge it does not say they did not and could not understand what he taught for the forty days.

  5. #215
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    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    I disagree. He was not talking about two different kingdoms and contrasting them. The word "but" simply indicates that He was telling them that despite the fact that He wasn't going to tell them the exact time it would happen, He was going to tell them how they would know it was beginning to happen. And the time in which they would know that the kingdom of God was beginning to be restored to Israel (and advance even beyond Israel) was when they would "receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon" them.
    I never said it was two kingdoms. I said it was two manifestations of the same kingdom...the kingdom of God. The second one mentioned but the first manifested is the inward kingdom found within all those who have the Holy Spirit, the first one mentioned but the second to manifest is the outward manifestation of the kingdom of God on this earth which is also the restoration of the kingdom of Israel because Jesus will rule the earth from Israel, sitting on David's throne.

  6. #216
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    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doulos View Post
    Are you aware of the meaning of "but?" I did post it for you earlier, however you seem to be ignoring it.

    235. ἀλλά allá; an adversative particle originally the neut. pl. of állos (243), other. A particle implying in speech some diversity or superaddition to what preceded. It serves, therefore, to mark opposition, antithesis, or transition. It is less frequent in the Sept. than the NT as there is no corresponding particle in Hebr. In the NT, it means “but” in various modifications:
    Zodhiates, Spiros: The Complete Word Study Dictionary : New Testament. electronic ed. Chattanooga, TN : AMG Publishers, 2000, c1992, c1993, S. G235

    (Bold and italics are mine)

    Just to show you this in action elsewhere I did an Englishman's Concordance look up on this word and pulled out a few examples... (Bold and italics below are mine)

    Matthew 8 (NASB95)
    4 And Jesus said to him, “See that you tell no one; but go, show yourself to the priest and present the offering that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.”

    What's the same: How this man was to proceed
    The Contrast: Not to do / to do

    Matthew 9 (NASB95)
    12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.

    What's the same: Who needs a physician
    The Contrast: not those who are healthy / those who are sick

    Matthew 9 (NASB95)
    17 “Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.”

    What's the same: What to do with new wine
    The Contrast: old wineskins / new wineskins

    Matthew 9 (NASB95)
    18 While He was saying these things to them, a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live.”

    What's the same: Subject of state of life
    The Contrast: dead / alive

    Mark 10 (NASB95)
    27 Looking at them, Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”

    What's the same: How can anyone be saved
    The Contrast: with people impossible / with God not impossible
    Of all your examples listed, not one of the verses begins with the word "but" as I had explained about. Again, the Strong's concordance for that Greek word says:

    alla
    al-lah'
    Neuter plural of G243; properly other things, that is, (adverbially) contrariwise (in many relations): - and, but (even), howbeit, indeed, nay, nevertheless, no, notwithstanding, save, therefore, yea, yet.

    Even the definition you provided says "A particle implying in speech some diversity or superaddition to what preceded." Did you get that? Superaddition to what preceded. In the passage we are speaking of, Acts 1:7-8, what was preceded to the word "but" was the Kingdom of God, not some time period two thousand years in the future, where a physical temple with a physical throne of David would somehow appear on this earth.

  7. #217

    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Like I told you before, Jesus said that the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, would not come to dwell in them until after His ascension (see John 16:7). And Jesus also said this about the Comforter/Holy Spirit:

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    This suggests that even though He taught them a lot of things while He was with them He didn't expect them to remember it all or understand it all until He sent the Comforter/Holy Spirit to them after His ascension to heaven. So, this would explain why they would not have fully understood the things He taught them yet as of the time He was speaking to them just before His ascension.
    Here. When Jesus said

    Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    it also says

    Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
    Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
    Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

    Both of those are when Jesus showed himself to them when they were gathered together in the room and he walked through the wall. They received the Spirit so they could understand, but they were to wait for power for the purpose of being witnesses. There is no way anyone could intelligently say that for the forty days following this event the disciples could not and did not understand. You can say this was so they would understand his death and resurrection, but you cannot say what Jesus told them afterward was hidden. You just don't have any scripture for support.

  8. #218
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    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raybob View Post
    Of all your examples listed, not one of the verses begins with the word "but" as I had explained about. Again, the Strong's concordance for that Greek word says:

    alla
    al-lah'
    Neuter plural of G243; properly other things, that is, (adverbially) contrariwise (in many relations): - and, but (even), howbeit, indeed, nay, nevertheless, no, notwithstanding, save, therefore, yea, yet.

    Even the definition you provided says "A particle implying in speech some diversity or superaddition to what preceded." Did you get that? Superaddition to what preceded. In the passage we are speaking of, Acts 1:7-8, what was preceded to the word "but" was the Kingdom of God, not some time period two thousand years in the future, where a physical temple with a physical throne of David would somehow appear on this earth.
    Ok, lets look at it as if it were used in terms of a superaddition. If this is the case, we should be able to exchange the "but" with "moreover" and have it make sense.

    Acts 1 (NASB95)
    7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
    8 moreover you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

    (Bolded "moreover" replaces "but" in this quote)

    How does receiving the Holy Spirit in power take not knowing when the kingdom of Israel will be restored to the next level? I honestly don't see how.

    Here is an example of the same word being used as a superaddition.

    Matthew 5 (NASB95)
    39 “But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

    Matthew 5 (NASB95)
    39 “But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; moreover whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

    Changing "but" to "moreover" works nicely here. We move from the more generic "do not resist an evil person" to the more specific "whoever slaps you on your right cheek" (example of the evil person) and "turn the other to him also" (an example of how not to resist).

  9. #219

    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Like I told you before, Jesus said that the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, would not come to dwell in them until after His ascension (see John 16:7). And Jesus also said this about the Comforter/Holy Spirit:

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    This suggests that even though He taught them a lot of things while He was with them He didn't expect them to remember it all or understand it all until He sent the Comforter/Holy Spirit to them after His ascension to heaven. So, this would explain why they would not have fully understood the things He taught them yet as of the time He was speaking to them just before His ascension.
    i would agree

    Christ was telling them base facts and parables, at that time they had not the eyes to see/no holy spirit

    after they got Holy Spirit they could recall and make sense of all the things he had said previously

    much like the cock crowing, the cock crowing is a wake up call

    christ told him something then revealed the truth of the matter to him

    peter had no idea what it ment to deny him 3 times till after the cock crowed

    much like they did not understand much of what he said until after the Holy Spirit entered them and discerned it for them

    not everyone sees the same thing when they read scripture - the Holy Spirit is what lets you understand

  10. #220

    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
    Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
    Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

    i read it as he unlocked their understanding, then told em to hang tight till they are endued power aka laying hands/cleanse/raise dead/ peter standing up in acts 2 and saying this is the time spoken of in Joel

  11. #221

    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by fewarechosen View Post
    i would agree

    Christ was telling them base facts and parables, at that time they had not the eyes to see/no holy spirit

    after they got Holy Spirit they could recall and make sense of all the things he had said previously
    which was before pentecost as proven above with scripture

  12. #222

    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by fewarechosen View Post
    Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
    Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
    Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

    i read it as he unlocked their understanding, then told em to hang tight till they are endued power aka laying hands/cleanse/raise dead/ peter standing up in acts 2 and saying this is the time spoken of in Joel
    unlocked their understanding yes, and how? Why then do some say contrary to scripture they did not and could not understand?

  13. #223
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    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doulos View Post
    ...How does receiving the Holy Spirit in power take not knowing when the kingdom of Israel will be restored to the next level? I honestly don't see how...
    The question Jesus was asked is, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" That question assumes He will restore again the kingdom to Israel, assuming it was a physical kingdom, as they were all taught by the scribes. Jesus' answer explained that they would understand, once they were empowered by the Holy Spirit, that the past physical kingdom was only a shadow of the true kingdom to come, that came at Pentecost.

  14. #224
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    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    ...Both of those are when Jesus showed himself to them when they were gathered together in the room and he walked through the wall. They were born again so they could understand, but they were to wait for power for the purpose of being witnesses. There is no way anyone could intelligently say that for the forty days following this event the disciples could not and did not understand...
    No way, until you realize what Jesus said earlier about what the purpose of the comforter was all about, and it wasn't just the purpose of being witnesses.

    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    (Joh 14:26)

    "Teaching you all things" and simply getting "power for the purpose of being witnesses" are like apples and oranges.

  15. #225
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    Re: My Kingdom is not of this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raybob View Post
    The question Jesus was asked is, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" That question assumes He will restore again the kingdom to Israel, assuming it was a physical kingdom, as they were all taught by the scribes. Jesus' answer explained that they would understand, once they were empowered by the Holy Spirit, that the past physical kingdom was only a shadow of the true kingdom to come, that came at Pentecost.
    The question that was asked has only little bearing on what you said before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raybob
    But there is NO difference. EVERY CASE of EVERY verse in the NT that begins with the word "But" is ALWAYS a continuation of, and expounding on the exact same thing as was said in the previous verse. ALWAYS.
    So, the continuation was not from two verses before, but the verse just before.

    Acts 1 (NASB95)
    7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

    And you want to interpret the "but" of the next verse as a superaddition. That is an allowable interpretation of this word in the Greek, but you have to look at context to see if it fits.

    Acts 1 (NASB95)
    8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

    So, verse 8 must be a superaddition to verse 7. Please explain the superaddition. How does receiving the Holy Spirit in power take "It is not for you to know times or epochs..." to the next level?

    It has to either be a superaddition or a contrast. I say contrast.

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