the resurrection of the righteous

[Diggindeeper]

There is still an order to things. Everything couldn't possibly occur at the same time.
Here is the correct order. Show how everything that you wrote fits this order of events.

The dead in Christ rise first.
Those alive are caught up to meet them in the air.
Jesus destroys the wicked who are alive and remaining.
The resurrection of the unjust can now occur...meaning anytime after.
The GWJ occurs

I agree, but I don't see why you insist that 'a thousand years' MUST lie between the last two things.

I offer that in the blink of an eye...in this order...all your five events happen.

1- The dead in Christ rise (because THAT precedes the rapture! And this is the physical resurrection. They have ALREADY been judged, or else they could not be deemed worthy to 'rise and meet Christ in the air'! "Its appointed to man ONCE to die and after this...the judgment!" We must "All stand before the judgment seat of Christ.")

2- Those alive (Those who are in Christ, but remain alive) are caught up to meet them in the air (instantaneously)

3- Jesus destroys the wicked...all evil, all wicked

4- The resurrection of the unjust (because the earth is being cleansed of evil and ALL unrighteousness is cleansed from the earth.)

5- Then comes the final judgment

This can and does all happen at the same time according to Amills, (could be likened to a lit, then all of a sudden, exploding firecracker--BAM! BAM! BAM!--and its over!), but it is only pre-mills who can't CONNECT it all because they insist on putting that literal 1,000 years SOMEWHERE. (While we say we are NOW in that 'time of unknown number of years represented by 'a thousand' years. Just as God owns NOT ONLY the cattle on a literal 1,000 hills and just as his mercy endure to ALL generations and NOT to only a literal '1,000 generations.)

ONLY those who insist there MUST be a literal 'thousand' years in there SOMEWHERE has this problem with 'How can it all fit'. Once one can see the possibility that the 'thousand years' may not mean LITERALLY '1,000' years, then the entire HOW all fits! (Otherwise, they must be pre-trib to be pre-mill, DivaD.

That's why they insist on that '1,000 years' after the 'rapture' before the wicked, evil are cleansed from the earth. Because--the dead in Christ MUST rise first, then we (remaining alive, in Christ) are caught up them...)

There are just too many scripture proofs that tell us the just and the unjust are resurrected at the same time... Look again at Ross' post (#10). Just too many scriptures that tell us what happens at the last day. ALL are resurrected at the last day... BOTH the righteous and the unrighteous...at the LAST DAY.

No more days after the resurrection day.

[ewq1938]

There are just too many scripture proofs that tell us the just and the unjust are resurrected at the same time... Look again at Ross' post (#10). Just too many scriptures that tell us what happens at the last day. ALL are resurrected at the last day... BOTH the righteous and the unrighteous...at the LAST DAY.

Not quite.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This makes clear that martyrs are resurrected first. The rest of the dead "lived not again until the thousand years were finished". After a period of time, then the rest of the dead are raised.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


This is the time when the rest are resurrected.

[divaD]

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


This is the time when the rest are resurrected.

Yep. It has to be. And this couldn't possibly include the rest of the dead who lived again at the beginning of the 1000 years. Because they would no longer be dead anymore. Rev 20 goes on to say that whosoever isn't found written in the book of life, they are cast into the LOF. One logical reason that the book of life is opened, even tho only the wicked are present, is because it's like a record book or something. IOW, none of these will be found written in the book of life. And besides, and folks keep missing this point for some reason, the text says that each and everyone was judged according to their works. I thought the general Christian consensus was, salvation isn't dependent upon works. But if saints are present at the GWJ, it would have to be based on works, since that's what the text clearly indicates. My point is, one can't have it both ways.

[ewq1938]

Yep. It has to be. And this couldn't possibly include the rest of the dead who lived again at the beginning of the 1000 years. Because they would no longer be dead anymore. Rev 20 goes on to say that whosoever isn't found written in the book of life, they are cast into the LOF. One logical reason that the book of life is opened, even tho only the wicked are present, is because it's like a record book or something. IOW, none of these will be found written in the book of life. And besides, and folks keep missing this point for some reason, the text says that each and everyone was judged according to their works. I thought the general Christian consensus was, salvation isn't dependent upon works. But if saints are present at the GWJ, it would have to be based on works, since that's what the text clearly indicates. My point is, one can't have it both ways.

Ecc_3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

On judgment day, all people are judged according to their works. The righteous and the wicked. The wicked are not alone on judgment day but they might feel alone after being judged.

Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Rev_14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Our works follow us to judgment day. Be careful to "maintain good works".

[divaD]

Ecc_3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

On judgment day, all people are judged according to their works. The righteous and the wicked. The wicked are not alone on judgment day but they might feel alone after being judged.

Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Rev_14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Our works follow us to judgment day. Be careful to "maintain good works".

These are good points. But actually, I wasn't arguing from my perspective. I was just saying that that is what the general consensus seems to be, that salvation isn't dependent upon works, even tho, what you provided, add to that, the sheep and goats judgment... IOW, the Bible seems to be indicating otherwise.

[ewq1938]

These are good points. But actually, I wasn't arguing from my perspective. I was just saying that that is what the general consensus seems to be, that salvation isn't dependent upon works, even tho, what you provided, add to that, the sheep and goats judgment... IOW, the Bible seems to be indicating otherwise.

As they say:

Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[vinsight4u8]

All saints are changed at the 7th trumpet, and rewarded. Rev. 19 shows two groups of armies of saints. One goes to the battle found at the end part of chapter 19. The other army lived also in chapter 19, but it is not in the fight. That is why they join the other army to reign, but they join as those that lived and reigned.

They His army at the battle of Rev. 19 - live, then fight, then sit to reign with Christ.

[jeffweeder]

If the dead in Christ rise first, which means immortal glorified bodies, then Christ kills the living wicked afterwards, meaning AFTER the dead in Christ rise, then how is it that those in Christ who rise first, could possibly be at the GWJ?

Hi divaD
1Thess 4 makes no mention of what is happening to the wicked when the dead in Christ rise.Only that the Brethen who are alive will not precede those that sleep in Christ.
Looking at Matt 13, we see the wicked tied in bundles first, and thrown into the fire ,as the wheat are gathered into his barn. This looks like the GWT, when those who are not found in the book of life suffer the lake of fire.
Matt 25 sees the sheep and goats being seperated at the same time and the Goats suffer eternal fire.
They can only suffer eternal fire when it is shown that their names are not in the book at its opening.
The whole of creation waits for the sons of God to be revealed, and i am proposing that will become evident when the Lambs book is finally opened.

John clearly says that he saw the DEAD standing before God, not the LIVING. In the blink of eye, at the last trump, when the dead in Christ rise first, and those that remain are caught up to meet them in the air, that infers they would officially be ALIVE forever more, no longer being dead. So how could John have possibly have seen these standing in front of God, when they would no longer be dead at this point?

In order for the dead to stand, they must be living again.
An hour is coming at the second coming of Christ when all who are in the tombs will rise---some to glory and some everlasting seperation from God.
Adding to the scriptures above, we also read that on the last day he will raise us, and on the last day the word he has already spoken will judge those who rejected the gospel.On the day we are glorified, the wicked will find themselves eternally seperated from the presence of God.
Jn 12 and 2Thess 1.

It seems to me that all these scriptures are speaking of the same event.
Christ comes right at the end of this age and this puts an end to this present heaven and earth.All the dead, whether good or bad, find themselves in eternity, and in a twinkling of an eye those with Christ Spirit ( those in the book of life) will be with him forever in the endless age of eternity,where only righteousness dwells.

[vinsight4u8]

The start of the new age can't begin until people are done marrying each other. The resurrection of the just is not in that age.

now - Great trib is coming
7th trumpet
the resurrection of the just
-people still live on the earth
Gog gathering of Rev. 20
people still marrying each other
The new age has not yet started.
resurrection of the unjust
sheep and goats /the never died people get separated
new heavens and new earth -- The world/age comes when people no longer get married.

[vinsight4u8]

1 Thess. 4-5 does tell what happens to the living wicked at the time of the return of Christ. They will be as a woman in travail.
This is a time of wrath that the church will not be here to endure. It is not the time of the wicked dead rising, but of the wicked living about to undergo the vials of God's wrath.

[Desperaux]

The start of the new age can't begin until people are done marrying each other. The resurrection of the just is not in that age.

new heavens and new earth -- The world/age comes when people no longer get married.

That is kind of an odd way of putting things! Humanity's marrying has no bearing on when the kingdom comes or not. The fact that no one will marry is not a sign of the new heaven and new earth. It is only a fact that bears out the glorification of the saints that we will not be required to marry.

[ross3421]

There is still an order to things. Everything couldn't possibly occur at the same time.
Here is the correct order. Show how everything that you wrote fits this order of events.

The dead in Christ rise first.
Those alive are caught up to meet them in the air.
Jesus destroys the wicked who are alive and remaining.
The resurrection of the unjust can now occur...meaning anytime after.
The GWJ occurs

The key is to understand the "alive" and remain are those which have been resurrected first. We are made "alive" from the grave at resurrection time. So with that said the order you have...

The dead in Christ rising first becoming alive and remain. Those who are resurrected afterwards are made alive but do not remain but are cast into the lake of fire. This all happens on the last day at the GWT.

1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[vinsight4u8]

That is kind of an odd way of putting things! Humanity's marrying has no bearing on when the kingdom comes or not. The fact that no one will marry is not a sign of the new heaven and new earth. It is only a fact that bears out the glorification of the saints that we will not be required to marry.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away...
v36 ...But of that day and hour...
v37 ...as the days of Noah...giving in marriage, until the day...

|Verse 34 refers to a generation that will pass away ahead of this time.
That generation is the one that sees the events of the great tribulation and the beginning of sorrows -ahead of that time.

Luke 20:34 ...The children of this world marry...
v 35 But...obtain that world...neither marry...

||||||The resurrection of the just does not end the age, the old earth has to flee.
After the resurrection of the just this age continues. The wicked will hide in the rocks and eventually be punished with 14 plagues from the vials of God's wrath.
There will be Armageddon, and /during/ after that time, even the people that returned to Israel -will still be marrying.

[Nihil Obstat]

That is kind of an odd way of putting things! Humanity's marrying has no bearing on when the kingdom comes or not. The fact that no one will marry is not a sign of the new heaven and new earth. It is only a fact that bears out the glorification of the saints that we will not be required to marry.

When Jesus tells the Sadducees that the children of this age marry and are given in marriage, He's saying that in context to the scenario they provided: the reason the woman had seven husbands was because death had the final say. But Jesus says that the children of the resurrection cannot die, and therefore will not be married or given in marriage. A woman being passed from brother to brother in order to attempt to perpetuate the name of the first dead brother would never happen to a child of the resurrection, not because they won't be married / marriage, but because they won't die. That's His whole point, and people miss it all the time.

[episkopos]

There are 2 general resurrections...

The first is for the saints (God's household) for either honour or dishonour. Pre-Mil

The second resurrection is for the righteous/wicked, for either life or death. Post-mil